Seeking advice...And a few uplifting words...My story

Hi all. Im new here so ill start off with a little about my poker career so far.


Ive played online poker for little less then a year now. Most of the time it has been a thoughtless waste of money, depositing 30 and 50 bucks just to watch it go away just as fast. None of this has ever botherd me though as i never taken it seriously. Never a way of making money, just the cost for a few nights of fun activity. Over the year I would think ive spent maybea cuple of hundred bucks, which isnt a whole lot.

2 weeks ago ive decided that it was time for another deposit. But this time i wanted it to last longer. I wanted to take a shot at this for serious. My employment ran out aswell so i was in for a few months of freetime and needed something to spend that time on. So i spent hours reading whatever i could get my hands on over the web. Forums, guides, articles, everything. (including the great writings found on this site)

I then deposited 110 buck into a newvly opened account at a skin for PokerRoom. That would cover 20 buyins for the 5+50 SnG tables, which was to be my main gametype.
After about a week of play, full of ups and downs, i decided to try the ringgames. At this point i had about 150 dollars, 15 buyins at the lowest NL tables.
And suddenly i had found my game!!

As soon as i rose above 250 i began playing at the 25 tables. I did this knowing my bankroll was somewhat to small, but it continued to climb significantly. It felt like the 25 tables offered a much more relyable gamestyle, and without any trouble i watched my bankroll climb even further.

2 days ago my bankroll had climbed to about 370 bucks. I then decided that if i hit 400, i would withdraw 200 just to feel ive actually made a profit, and id still have 200 to play for. Everything felt good. I knew i had found my a-game, but still didnt think myself any better player then the other guys on the net. But i was calm, steady and awaited the right cards and made plays at the right times. I knew i could do this, but i was well aware that if i became TO confident, things could take a turn for the worse.

Looking back at the past 2 days, i cant see what went wrong. Sure, there were a few bad beats, and once i tried a higher level table which failed miserably. But ive managed to loose my entire bankroll, everything but 15 bucks. This has happened at the 25 dollar tables, the very ones i, for the past week, has flourished on.

One thing i admit is that i havent followed the guidance for "how much of bankroll to risk at one day". As i said, im currently unemployeed and have spent many hours a day playing. But ve had regular breaks, and whenever ive felt frustrated and/or angry, ive walked away, visited a friend for a few hours. Anything to take my mind of it.

But to sum it up, the bankroll ive so patiently build over 2 weeks, i have managed to destroy in just 2 days. I dont know if im here seeking advice, or just wanted someone to tell me they been in the same position, that they know the feeling. But i just had to get it out of my system.


Im sorry for the long complaining post, and its my first one even. And if anyone even read it all, thank u for ur time. When my feelings calm a little, and ive had some time away from this, ill be coming back with a fresh mind and another deposit. Im not through with online poker just yet, but right now there isnt one thing in the world that i hate more then No Limit Texas Hold Em.

Thanks.

Sounds like the newbie circle of death to me. You shouldn't play another hand until you figure out what went wrong. It could simply be variance and what went wrong is that you were playing above your roll. It could be that your play was simply unprofitable and it didn't show at first but came back fiercely. Whatever it is, figure it out, then go again and don't screw up in the same way.

If you're in question on if you screwed up in a hand, post it, preferably without results to start. We'll let you know if you screwed up.

Crunchy is right, but just to give you a demonstration of bankroll ridiculousness:

4th September - BR £329
21st September - BR £788
7th October - BR £526

This is at £25NL, and I play maybe 10 hours a week.

Hey guys, thanks for the replies.

You know, after re-reading (ive read it before but forgot about it) "Newbie circle of death" thread i must say that it truly does remind me of the past 2 weeks. With one exception though, ive never once though myself a good player, nor have i ever though that NLHE was a walk in the park. (I did shit pokerchips once but lets not talk about that)

Something DID indeed go seriously wrong for me 2 days ago, but overconfident was not apart of it. Playing over my bankroll probably was though. And not having the patience to actually "quit for the day", as opposed to "quit for a few hours".

You may have just hit a couple of bad beats and stuff or variance and thats why you need to play within your bankroll so when you hit a bad beat or 10 or hit cold cards you dont lose all oyur money.

Originally Posted by Blindseye

And if anyone even read it all, thank u for ur time. When my feelings calm a little, and ive had some time away from this, ill be coming back with a fresh mind and another deposit. Im not through with online poker just yet, but right now there isnt one thing in the world that i hate more then No Limit Texas Hold Em.

Hey man, good luck and keep trying. I'm glad you haven't given up and that you're planning on having another go. I believe that anyone can succeed if they seriously put their mind to it and if they're willing to really work at playing the game properly.

As for your hating NL right now, I'm with you all the way. Hahaha I hate it right now too, I just lost a huge chunk of my bankroll a few days ago, and this is after I had JUST come back from a previous downswing. I refuse to believe that bad luck caused both downswings, so I'm taking a break to re-evaluate myself. Over the past couple of days, I've been reviewing tons of hand histories to try to figure out why I'm losing so much money, and I've been posting hands I'm really unsure about on this here FTR. USE THIS FORUM! I'm new-ish and I suck at poker, so that's the only advice I can give you, lol. Seriously though, try and go through some histories. See if you can spot mistakes. Then post the hands on FTR and see how close your analysis is to the analysis of others. It's a good exercise and I think it'll help a lot. It's helped me so far ...

It sounds like you've got what it takes, so keep plugging away! I'm gonna end this post and shut up before I write a book about how I understand the woes of trying to learn online poker.

P.S. shitting poker chips sounds pretty damn painful.

this type of stuff happens to everyone at points. however, its much more of a warning sign when you're just starting out because its a lot harder to say write it off as just variance. take a break, get your discipline in check and don't play outside your bankroll. the next thing to do after that, is to find out what % of hands you're playing preflop, if its above 20% then its too many. then, start posting some hands you lost money on and don't understand, we'll tell you if you dun right or wrong. good luck.

Originally Posted by blindseye

Hi all. Im new here

Welcome!

Originally Posted by blindseye

So i spent hours reading whatever i could get my hands on over the web. Forums, guides, articles, everything. (including the great writings found on this site)

That’s a good start. However, you should also post on here. Not because I am some sort of sycophantic self-promoter of the value of FTR, but, as Fnord has stated in a sticky elsewhere on this site, Poker is a game of decisions. We make money by making as many correct decisions as we can and forcing our opponents to make incorrect ones. By posting on here, be it questions, Hand histories or whatever, you get a variety of feedback on what you did and can learn what your strengths are and, crucially, what your weaknesses are.

Originally Posted by blindseye

I then deposited 110 buck into a newvly opened account at a skin for PokerRoom. That would cover 20 buyins for the 5+50 SnG tables, which was to be my main gametype.
After about a week of play, full of ups and downs, i decided to try the ringgames. At this point i had about 150 dollars, 15 buyins at the lowest NL tables.
And suddenly i had found my game!!

Step one for me would be for you to decide which element of the game you prefer, cash or tournaments and generally stick to it until you are nailing it to start with. Only you can say which it is, based on enjoyment and profitability.

Originally Posted by blindseye

Looking back at the past 2 days, i cant see what went wrong. Sure, there were a few bad beats, and once i tried a higher level table which failed miserably. But ive managed to loose my entire bankroll, everything but 15 bucks. This has happened at the 25 dollar tables, the very ones i, for the past week, has flourished on.

This could be due to a whole host of factors, anything from a horrific run of cards, bad beats, playing outside your roll, “beginners luck” running out etc.

Originally Posted by blindseye

One thing i admit is that i havent followed the guidance for "how much of bankroll to risk at one day".

This is a matter of discipline, which no-one can teach you. You have to instil self-discipline. One method can be keeping a detailed record of what you are playing. There is a SnG Spreadsheet that you can download (there is a link somewhere on this site) and fill in, or you could shell out for Poker Tracker or, alternatively, just write things down on a piece of paper. Something that makes you keep a record of what you are winning/losing.

Originally Posted by blindseye

I dont know if im here seeking advice, or just wanted someone to tell me they been in the same position, that they know the feeling. But i just had to get it out of my system.

Well, getting it out of your system is good, and yes, I don’t think there are very many people on here who have not taken some form of horrific downswing.

Despite this, I’m hoping that the first part of what you have said is true though. If you are here for advice, good, you’ll get it. Just to warn you though, it will be brutally frank and honest at times but I guarantee if you take it on board in the way in which it is intended, you will make money at this game.

Good luck and hope you stick with it. We’ll help all we can.

- Staresy

Originally Posted by courtiebee

P.S. shitting poker chips sounds pretty damn painful.

Peeing them hurts worse.

Thank you all wor your replies.
Ive had a long nights sleep and a good meal and a shower. Reading your thoughts and tips really makes me feel a whole lot better.
Thank you all!

Quick question, which book on NLHE should i buy and read first? Ive never read any poker book before, only what ive found on the internet, so i need one thats good for beginners, one with info i can acctually apply to my game at this stage.

ok, first. AS soon as i read you thought "when i get to 400 i was going to take 200 off" I thought, "bad move". When you think that the best thing to do is to take the money off IMMEDIATELY. Trying to win that "last 20" for some reason will absolutely bankrupt you. The main reason for this, is that you've put youself in a mental state where ANY loss will put you into a negative emotional state. Now instead of needing 20 you need 35, etc. etc. It feeds on itself. The best thing to do is just take the withdrawl. Now you're playing calmly and are in a "building slowly" mode instead of "final 20" mode. That's #1.

Next, without knowing what cards you play preflop, I don't know if you just hit a bad spot or are playing too loose or what. But a couple things happen when new players play TAG (if they really are playing TAG) that they don't see.

One is they stop "listening" to other players bets or calls or rasies. They hit TPTK and just blow bets out as fast as possible without thinking, "hmm, what's he calling me with?" and then the call that river reraise to find out they were beat the whole time.

The other thing they do, especially at low stakes is make pot sized bets to take away drawing odds on a table where the idiots will pay anything to draw. And Then they pay them off when the draw hits. So you're building a pot FOR the idiot AND THEN paying them off when they hit. That's not to say you shouldn't take away drawing odds, but there are more sophisticated and smarter ways to do it. The biggest crime here, though, is when you play them off. You're 80% sure they hit something big but you call them on the river anyway. Huge Mistake that will eat your bankroll. If you're making pot sized bets onthe flop and turn, then they aren't trying to bluff you when they raise you.

Finally, reality gets twisted and warped when new players play poker. They have NO idea what to expect, so whatever is happening IS REAL. Well, that's not always the case. Basically you don't have enough experience to know what's real and what's not. in other words what you should expect, what's variance, what's caused by your play, what's caused by br management issues, etc. The only solution to this is to get more experience. That means playing alot. You essentially taught yourself how to lose when you were playing "for fun". Learning how to win consistently is a whole other thing. There's cards, there's betting, there's hearing what's going on at the table, there's mental discipline with money and time and emotions, there's expectations. It's a crazy game.

However, if you don't expect to miraculously go from a losing player to a winning player, if you have a little patience, if you stay calm and become an observer of yourself as well as your game, if you keep trying to improve, then you will.

My short term advice is this, however. QUIT WHILE YOU'RE AHEAD. That means, when you're playing and you're up, leave. When you have a winning session, leave. When you've made a decent chuck of change, withdraw some. Start training yourself to be a winner. That might mean playng for 20 minutes, doubling up on a big hand or two and then taking a 4 hour break. End the session, do something else and come back for a New Session later. Don't get overly excited about huge wins and don't get overly depressed about big downturns. You don't know enough yet to know anything. You can't put meaning to what's happening because you don't know what it means. Just train yourself to play good cards, observe yourself, and start a habit of quitting as a small winner instead of trying to hit home runs and blowing your chips off in a mad rush.

that should go in the book Aok

Originally Posted by aokrongly

My short term advice is this, however. QUIT WHILE YOU'RE AHEAD. That means, when you're playing and you're up, leave. When you have a winning session, leave.

As much as I respect everything you write AOK, I have to 100% _disagree_ with this. If you quite while you're ahead, surely it's impossible to ever make money at poker. What do you suggest - keep playing when you're losing, but as soon as you're winning, quit?? This just doesn't make any sense to me.

When I play, if I am having a losing streak then that's when I quit (temporarily). I take a break, I clear my head, maybe not play until the next day. But when I am winning - I keep playing and playing until I stop winning. Say my buy-in is $20. If I go down to $5, I quit and give up. If I get to $35 - and if I still feel I am playing my A-Game (which is what got me from $20 to $35) I sure as hell don't quit!! I keep playing and get up to $40, then $45. If I suddenly find that I played a hand very badly and know I played it badly that's when I'll quit, and take my profit with me.

But - "quit whilst you're ahead" is probably the most illogical and worst advice you can give any poker player, because that means you will NEVER make a profit - or only a very small one - but you will make big consistent losses.

QUIT WHILST YOU'RE DOWN BEFORE YOU GO DOWN EVEN MORE. TAKE A BREAK. WHEN YOU'RE WINNING - KEEP GOING!!!

Don't feel bad, man. I spent my first two months of real money play slowly building my $50 deposit into almost $150 by playing as soundly as I could at the micro NL tables. I didn't care about making huge money, only learning the game. So the other night, I was watching the 25 NL tables, kind of scouting for my future move up. I noticed the incredibly bad play and thought, "hey, I beat guys better than this every day at the 10 NL tables. Why am I putting my money to sleep? So I took my money over to the 25 tables, and promptly took two bad beats, including having a King high flush redrawn on by the donk with As4d when the fourth spade fell on the river and he tried to bluff me all-in on the turn. Basically, after two days of this and just poor play in general while trying to recover my lost roll, I am down to $30. So I'm going back to basics at the smallest limits. I don't really have any advice for you, but I needed to get this off my chest and let ya know y'ain't alone. But I got something for that $120 I lost. I got a good lesson. And you should too. Tighten up, be patient, and don't play outside your roll, no matter how bad you might think those players are, cause the cards ain't got no allegiances.

Originally Posted by satan1974

Originally Posted by aokrongly

My short term advice is this, however. QUIT WHILE YOU'RE AHEAD. That means, when you're playing and you're up, leave. When you have a winning session, leave.

As much as I respect everything you write AOK, I have to 100% _disagree_ with this. If you quite while you're ahead, surely it's impossible to ever make money at poker. What do you suggest - keep playing when you're losing, but as soon as you're winning, quit?? This just doesn't make any sense to me.

I think what Aok was referring to (and maybe I'm wrong and he'll correct me) is that, when you are starting out, it is almost worth quitting whilst you're ahead because you are not necessarily prepared or experienced enough to incorporate the swings. If you play on whilst you are ahead when you are starting out, suddenly you are beating the tables you are at and move up, have a little more success and think this poker lark is easy.
Before you know it, you are playing way outside of your roll and, because invariably you have had some considerable luck along the way, it starts to even out more. Plus, better players begin to take advantage because they don't pay you off when you hit your hands because they have a far better feel of when you do and you begin to get destroyed when they make a hand because they know how to extract the most amount of money out of noobs. Suddenly, the hits you take are far more than your BR or emotions can cope with. I might be wrong, but I think this is what Aok is alluding to.

My tuppence'th here is this:

When I started playing poker, I was very aware that I was a beginner, a newcomer, and that my knowledge was very limited and my experience even more so. I didn't expect to win, I expected to learn.

As a result, I felt that I was more or less immune from tilt. If I lost because Iplayed badly, I'd learn from it; if I lost because of a bad beat, I'd chuckle and say "now that *proves* I'm becoming a good player!"

But as I got a bit more clued up, and actually became a winning player, titl suddenly became an issue again. I developed expectations of success; I became less tolerant of and more annoyed by the mistakes I made; I misinterepreted recklessness as aggression and got horribly burned as a result.

This is, I think, a big part of the circle of death - the feeling that you have reached a point where you *deserve* success, and if it doesn't come (and it doesn't really matter why) it will adversely affect your game and your mental state. It's almost like "right, if poker is going to play dirty, so am I - an all-in with TPNK will make you fold, Mr Fishy-wi.... SHIT! A straight? How DARE you play KJo against my raises!" Etc. etc. etc.

aok: with the utmost respect 'cos you're a better player than me by far, I wholeheartedly disagree with your advice re: quitting while your ahead.

The fundamental principle which applies whether I'm investing in shares or playing poker is to quit when i'm LOSING, not winning. If a share has gone up 50% for me, I won't sell it if the only justification is "i wanna quit while i'm ahead". I see that 'reason' cost my acquaintances/friends so much money. I will sell if what was a good stock has now become a bad stock for some particular reason.

Getting into the 'groove' doesn't happen often enough (at least for me a beginner) that if I've picked up 4 buy-ins across 4 tables I'm sure as hell staying until I see myself making a couple of bad plays and losing.

I don't know about anyone else, but in my personal experience I do observe streaks and 'card rushes'. And the reverse - we've all heard about the dreaded cold streaks: now we gotta get outta the way there!

PS: Totally agree with you about the '$400' target. I set myself to get $10000 by 20/10/05 'cos the date looks good... and I had a week of going nowhere but luckily for me I just made it. But I would have been better off definitely stress-wise and possibly bankroll-wise if I never got into the business of setting a 'target'

To expand on the stock market analogy above, one thing I am doing on my trades that might be applicable is to indeed set a target. When it is hit, take some off the table. The very key point, however, is this - when you are very close to your target, if you're not in a very strong moment (ie your A game), TAKE IT.

Don't sweat the pennies left until your target to take the dollars. Just get it.

OTOH, if my stock is just blazing away, and hits my target, I won't take profit just then, use a little discretion and wait for it to slow or show signals of turning down. Not sure how applicable this is to poker BR and hot streaks, but it is an example of money management, which you obviously have to think about in this wonderful game.

Just thought I'd add my 2cents here as well

BR swings definately happen to everyone; all that you can do is try to ride out the bad swings and make the good ones count.

One thing that has helped me ride out downswings has been bonus whoring; I had a horrible streak recently where I dropped $350. I gritted my teeth, kept playing my game through the swing and eventually cleared a $500 bonus to keep my BR in a position where I could keep playing my limits and my game.

I have currently dropped another $100 but am working on a $150 bonus (thankfully I am on the way up, so hopefully this time I get my bonus as a profit as well! ).

I made a Net Teller account so that I could jump from site to site, but generally stay on the same main sites (party poker and poker stars for me; like the tournies and fish factor) only trying other sites for bonuses.

Anyway, good luck getting your BR back to it's peak; it sounds like you have the dedication to make it

1. You shouldn't play under-rolled. That means your bankroll is supposed to take all the beats easily and you shouldn't have to lose it all.
2. You should make profitable plays in a lot of situations. How do you know if the play was profitable? Pokerstove your opponent's hand RANGE vs. your hand. This is post-hand analysis. Do it.
3. Try limit
I found limit to be very profitable because the 300BB rule is very solid and SSH made me play very very profitable limit poker due to relentless value-betting... also, the fact that I rarely fold the best hand has to contribute to my winnings (unless the best hand is a high card) and also the fact that I can play more hands profitably...

I went from $900, to $640, to $970 in 3 days playing 25NL at stars. This could have just been variance (and you were playing outside your roll)

cobere you make a very good point.

The mistake our friend made was he had $380 - and damned to hell if perhaps i got to $392: i ain't taking it I want $400 WAAAAAAAH!

if the stock has been good but weakening, then I'm glad you don't force the issue and take your profits. But what I find is that setting NO target works best for me because it allows me to be completely objective.

Stock is at $12.95 and now I think i should sell? Then sell. Stock has trebled to $3 and I think it's got potential? Hold. As much as you try, targets give you blinkers. It makes you think in terms of how far you are above or below your target (which is of course an arbitrary number in most cases) rather than being objective. It's happened to me in the market, in poker, and online casinos (i once blew a $580 sticky bonus 'cos I wanted to hit my $600 target).

Of course sticky bonuses have an 'optimum' target and some bonuses demand you cash out with no less than X. But we're talking about poker here of course.

Thanks for all the thoughts and tips guys. Im to green to understand some of it, but others have definitly made me think diffrently on certain aspects of the game.

I also wanna mention that the 10 buck that was left when i began my break has since yesterday grown to well over 50.
Im not counting on it to lead to anything, but its still fun to see it grow

Originally Posted by Blindseye

its still fun to see it grow

Too easy

"The biggest crime here, though, is when you play them off. You're 80% sure they hit something big but you call them on the river anyway."

First post here...great site.

AOK: Great post. But, question: Does anyone sell a product that will keep me from commiting this sin? I do it far too frequently and it is a huge leak.

Originally Posted by relayer

AOK: Great post. But, question: Does anyone sell a product that will keep me from commiting this sin? I do it far too frequently and it is a huge leak.

Welcome to the site!

Excuse me for answering a question which I wasn't asked, but I think this may be of use to you.

Stick around, I'll bet you learn a thing or two.

Infamous---thank you. In lurking for a while around here for the past week or so, it is VERY obvious that I can learn a lot from you fellas...

Is aok a pro? His stuff is great....

Originally Posted by relayer

Infamous---thank you. In lurking for a while around here for the past week or so, it is VERY obvious that I can learn a lot from you fellas...

Is aok a pro? His stuff is great....

Yea he lives off poker full time. If you haven't already you should search for all his posts, I promise you will learn a lot. He's also writing a book at the moment as part of a series called Performance Poker. It'll be well worth checking out when its finished you can be sure