Quote Originally Posted by dev
Stacks:
Quote Originally Posted by dev
None of your value range is likely to get paid off. If we have a Q we have to slow play it for any value here. I think it's a bit too weak to slow play. A 2 is in really good shape, but I don't think we're in there with a 2.

My point is that the c-betters range is SO weak that we're not getting value from our KQ, etc. hands anyway. So we play everything the same and take down the pot. We've likely already gotten max value from a smaller pair now our airballs have value, too.

I think I've explained my point of view to death. Tell me how you play BB's range on this flop. We're not donking anything into a guy who cbets so much, are we?
Well considering villain is opening from UTG+1, and we would be calling OOP, I was have a very tight range here. A check/raise from me on this flop could really only be repping 3 hands that I would be doing this for value (15 combos QQ+). My range for calling UTG+1's open OOP here without reads would be something like 88+, AK.

Villains range (UTG+1) would be something relatively similar like 66+, AQ+, KQ. I really don't know if I would expect UTG+1 to be cbetting this board all that often, as I would suspect that he would check back a portion of his hands that has SD value.

Now, I'm not disagreeing with you that check/raising this flop might be profitable against a large portion of villains. All I'm stating is that a check/raise from me on this flop probably isn't all that good of a play. LIke I don't even know what hands you are referring to us check/raising with here. But I really could not represent a credible enough range here if I were to check/raise, and thinking opposition could probably 3bet me off of nearly every hand, or float me. And tbh, I just really don't see a need to c/raise a hand like 88 here. I don't get called by worse, and because it looks so "bluffy" I might induce a call from hands like JJ, TT that I don't want.

So, to answer you question of how I am playing my range in this spot if I'm BB. I'm predominantly check/calling, and check/folding. I'd likely check/fold the lowest part of my range of pps, as (and this might be incorrect), I don't really care to much for taking a really passive line with a very marginal hand OOP this early in the hand. Like if I call preflop with 66, I'm check/folding it on this flop given UTG+1's range of hands is likely either ahead of me now, or has decent equity with 2 overs.

Now if this was a LP vs BB situation, then I can see merit in check/raising a wider range and doing so for thinner value. Then I could see reasons for check/raising like QJ, expecting villains to level themselves into calls with TT, JJ, QT, etc. And these are hands that if we had just check/called villain would likely pot control the turn with and check behind. Now with a checkraise, since we have a small range for doing it, he likely thinks we are bluffing more often than we are, and will call with those hands to catch our "bluff". We have gotten more value out of those hands, and he will likely still check back the turn in hopes of showing down the best hand.

Just my $0.02 cents though. This is definitely a subject I don't have tons of experience on.