saranacJACK vs Zorrito

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($0.95)
Button ($1.07)
SB ($2.37)
BB ($3.68)
UTG ($2.27)
Hero (UTG+1) ($2.81)
MP1 ($3.32)
MP2 ($2.17)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 4, 4
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.08, 5 folds, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) 2, Q, 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.12, BB calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.41) 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.41) Q (2 players)
BB bets $0.20

Total pot: $0.41

Sorry no reads, I was multi-tabling without HUD....

I was playing TAGGy

What's your move here?

Depends on what I think of the BB.

Given that it's full nit, probably fold.

I might be bluffing in his spot here.

Without a read on the specific player, I think at this limit bluffs tend to be bigger and value tends to be smaller. Keep in mind He could have a Q or a 2 and have been looking for you to bet the turn. He could also have another pocket pair. How fast was the river bet?

haha I was thinking of posting this hand to see what people thought...

my stats can be found somewhere in this forum within the past month for 80k hands if anyone wants more of a read

PP is such a bad flop call by BB.

I almost wonder if, the turn would be a bet/fold sort of a situation, making a blocking bet, while being willing to check out on the river assuming you don't improve, to not give up initiative, give our opp a chance to fold, and controll the size of the pot.

tough spot he could have you beat but he could also have said this dude showed weakness by checking the turn so i might as well bet. Stats on player would be very helpful. He could of had a Q and wanted to pull the old c-call flop c-raise turn line but you phucked those plans up by checking behind on the turn.
Villan post here so i will give him credit and assume that he is not callling your raise with crap
i would say he called your raise
any pair below queens ( set hunting and assume he would raise with QS or better)
AJ/AQ suited and unsuited most would raise with AK

i think that would be top of his calling range ofcourse i could be way off and he called with 10/7 soooted

I don't know how he plays, against a really aggressive player playing heads up I'd snap him off. But as Fnord mentioned, it IS nitring...

not knowing villain i think this is a oh boy he looks weak let me see if i can't steal the pot bet often enough to call.

Originally Posted by saranacJACK

Sorry no reads, I was multi-tabling without HUD...

I don't think he has a Q here, although it certainly is in his range. He's probably calling you some pair like 55-99, TT or JJ maybe and he's looking to outplay you on a later street. I double barrel here, he's folding the turn alot without a Q, even if he has a Q - he probably dumps any Q without an ace kicker to a large turn bet anyway (IF you are nitty). You can't bluff-raise the river though because you don't look like your repping a Q by checking the turn. That's my point on why I think we should double barrel. Your hand is hopeless against anything that calls so you need to either bluff or c/f. Alot of players will call you with any pocket pair on that flop, if they can fold, let's give them the option.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

I don't think he has a Q here, although it certainly is in his range. He's probably calling you some pair like 55-99, TT or JJ maybe and he's looking to outplay you on a later street. I double barrel here, he's folding the turn alot without a Q, even if he has a Q - he probably dumps any Q without an ace kicker to a large turn bet anyway (IF you are nitty). You can't bluff-raise the river though because you don't look like your repping a Q by checking the turn. That's my point on why I think we should double barrel. Your hand is hopeless against anything that calls so you need to either bluff or c/f. Alot of players will call you with any pocket pair on that flop, if they can fold, let's give them the option.

this...

only reason I cold called flop is your c-bet was 100% in the past 100+ hands therefore I didn't believe you hit the queen... in fact i considered check raising the flop... I was firing the river regardless as to what came out... I wouldve mucked instantly to a bet on the turn cause I have no balls to check raise you there...

nh though... I'm sure you will move up very soon

Now that you mention it, if you know your opponent is a cbetting player, this is a really good spot to c/r bluff the flop. It's a great cbetting flop, and thus a great c/ring flop against someone who bets lots of flops.

Originally Posted by dev

Now that you mention it, if you know your opponent is a cbetting player, this is a really good spot to c/r bluff the flop. It's a great cbetting flop, and thus a great c/ring flop against someone who bets lots of flops.

Please elaborate.

What value hands are you c/ring this flop with?

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by dev

Now that you mention it, if you know your opponent is a cbetting player, this is a really good spot to c/r bluff the flop. It's a great cbetting flop, and thus a great c/ring flop against someone who bets lots of flops.

Please elaborate.

What value hands are you c/ring this flop with?

We've all heard that most flops miss most hands, but Q22r misses almost all hands. When I see that flop and I'm checked to, I'm betting even vs. calling stations. So, if you know me, and I cbet that flop, it's probably profitable for you to c/r ATC. With history, this can turn into an agro monkey fest, but at this limit, I doubt it.

You could argue that the range is too much garbage and not enough nut, but I'm not so concerned with balance here. If we are worried about balance, I guess we could do the harrington thing and look at your watch so you're c/raising like 50% of hands or something. I'm one 3 barrel/100 hands away from being a total laggtard so I get into pissing contests with other laggs and taggs all the time. This is a spot that's really hard for them to rebluff.

There was a thread a few months back about which flops were best to cbet. Robb did a really good analysis on it. It's worth looking for, but I'm pretty sure you would have already read it. (It was like Julyish I think)

def. barrel the turn

However, this is a flop that you aren't check/raising for value like ever really. Would you c/r 33-QQ, KQ, QJ? Therefore, when you do c/r here it's predominantly as a bluff.

For someone in Zoritto's position, wouldn't leading be better than c/r'ing since IMO leading something like top/top here is more standard than c/r'ing. C/r'ing is usually done to trap or to represent trapping by c/r bluffing draws etc once and awhile, and you can't really represent much by trying to fake trap your opponent here (no draws, super dry flop) . Plus if you lead, you can donk a blank turn as well for only a bit more than what c/r'ing would cost, and this might scare the initial raiser more than if you c/r. C/r'ing just makes the pot big too early, and you may get called with even AK here. Plus if you still think you're ahead or can get villian to fold, you'll need to make a fairly large bet on the turn to push him out, and making large bets with air oop isn't always the most profitable line when facing an UTG raiser. Deciding whether to lead or c/r we need a plan for the rest of the hand for when things don't go as we hope on the flop.

Just my thoughts, please comment/berate/argue, add etc.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

However, this is a flop that you aren't check/raising for value like ever really. Would you c/r 33-QQ, KQ, QJ? Therefore, when you do c/r here it's predominantly as a bluff.

Originally Posted by Dev

You could argue that the range is too much garbage and not enough nut, but I'm not so concerned with balance here. If we are worried about balance, I guess we could do the harrington thing and look at your watch so you're c/raising like 50% of hands or something.

What's wrong with c/ring that range, anyway? Are you c/cing KQ here against a player that c-bets a lot?

What are you hoping to accomplish by c/raising most of those hands in that range? You would basically be turning a hand with good showdown value into a bluff.

You could c/r hands like KQ, AQ, QJ, etc if you know villain will believe a c/r from you here would be a bluff as then he would likely continue with a bit wider and weaker range.

However, this is all just imo, and I don't really feel all that adept at c/raising tbh. However, it just seems like a really bad spot to c/r as BB considering his range.

Assume both players are tagg-lagg with high flop agression.

BB preflop calling range > Hero's calling range imo. BB always checks thbis flop, Hero always bets.

BB should be raising more often than not, because that's the spot where Hero has to decide whether to stack off or not. Even the most laggtarded players can't continue with most of their range here. Unless the situation presents itself a LOT between these two players, I think the move will be to check-raise a lot. Again, I'm not really concerning myself with balance here.

None of your value range is likely to get paid off. If we have a Q we have to slow play it for any value here. I think it's a bit too weak to slow play. A 2 is in really good shape, but I don't think we're in there with a 2.

My point is that the c-betters range is SO weak that we're not getting value from our KQ, etc. hands anyway. So we play everything the same and take down the pot. We've likely already gotten max value from a smaller pair now our airballs have value, too.

I think I've explained my point of view to death. Tell me how you play BB's range on this flop. We're not donking anything into a guy who cbets so much, are we?

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by dev

Now that you mention it, if you know your opponent is a cbetting player, this is a really good spot to c/r bluff the flop. It's a great cbetting flop, and thus a great c/ring flop against someone who bets lots of flops.

Please elaborate.

What value hands are you c/ring this flop with?

we're imbalancing our range to exploit our opponent

there is no guarantee that he's going to think "ah ha! he's raising dry flops so I'll start floating his raises"

he might "adjust" by saying "oh man what I wouldn't give to have a queen here" and folding

i think he has a queen and was going for a turn c-raise

I did say I was folding to a second barrel right?!! clearly I didn't have a queen...

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

def. barrel the turn

this. not even close really if you're going to cbet 44 on this board texture

edit: fold PF as well

Villain would easily slow play a queen in this situation or would even have pokat queens or pokat dooces. This river is a bad card for the villain to bluff cos now it doesnt look like he has anything. The fact he bet it seems like he has quad queens or queens full boat.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

However, this is a flop that you aren't check/raising for value like ever really. Would you c/r 33-QQ, KQ, QJ? Therefore, when you do c/r here it's predominantly as a bluff.

OK, but if our opponent adjusts and starts 3b bluffing us or floating IP, we WILL c/r his flop for value.

So our first adjustment: c/r dry flops
and WHEN our opponent adjust to US we make the second adjustment of c/r dry flops for value

but a lot of the time you're just going to keep exploiting opponents that are not paying attention to what you're doing
don't adjust FOR your opponent, you have to see them adjust first

Stacks:

Originally Posted by dev

None of your value range is likely to get paid off. If we have a Q we have to slow play it for any value here. I think it's a bit too weak to slow play. A 2 is in really good shape, but I don't think we're in there with a 2.

My point is that the c-betters range is SO weak that we're not getting value from our KQ, etc. hands anyway. So we play everything the same and take down the pot. We've likely already gotten max value from a smaller pair now our airballs have value, too.

I think I've explained my point of view to death. Tell me how you play BB's range on this flop. We're not donking anything into a guy who cbets so much, are we?

Originally Posted by dev

Stacks:

Originally Posted by dev

None of your value range is likely to get paid off. If we have a Q we have to slow play it for any value here. I think it's a bit too weak to slow play. A 2 is in really good shape, but I don't think we're in there with a 2.

My point is that the c-betters range is SO weak that we're not getting value from our KQ, etc. hands anyway. So we play everything the same and take down the pot. We've likely already gotten max value from a smaller pair now our airballs have value, too.

I think I've explained my point of view to death. Tell me how you play BB's range on this flop. We're not donking anything into a guy who cbets so much, are we?

Well considering villain is opening from UTG+1, and we would be calling OOP, I was have a very tight range here. A check/raise from me on this flop could really only be repping 3 hands that I would be doing this for value (15 combos QQ+). My range for calling UTG+1's open OOP here without reads would be something like 88+, AK.

Villains range (UTG+1) would be something relatively similar like 66+, AQ+, KQ. I really don't know if I would expect UTG+1 to be cbetting this board all that often, as I would suspect that he would check back a portion of his hands that has SD value.

Now, I'm not disagreeing with you that check/raising this flop might be profitable against a large portion of villains. All I'm stating is that a check/raise from me on this flop probably isn't all that good of a play. LIke I don't even know what hands you are referring to us check/raising with here. But I really could not represent a credible enough range here if I were to check/raise, and thinking opposition could probably 3bet me off of nearly every hand, or float me. And tbh, I just really don't see a need to c/raise a hand like 88 here. I don't get called by worse, and because it looks so "bluffy" I might induce a call from hands like JJ, TT that I don't want.

So, to answer you question of how I am playing my range in this spot if I'm BB. I'm predominantly check/calling, and check/folding. I'd likely check/fold the lowest part of my range of pps, as (and this might be incorrect), I don't really care to much for taking a really passive line with a very marginal hand OOP this early in the hand. Like if I call preflop with 66, I'm check/folding it on this flop given UTG+1's range of hands is likely either ahead of me now, or has decent equity with 2 overs.

Now if this was a LP vs BB situation, then I can see merit in check/raising a wider range and doing so for thinner value. Then I could see reasons for check/raising like QJ, expecting villains to level themselves into calls with TT, JJ, QT, etc. And these are hands that if we had just check/called villain would likely pot control the turn with and check behind. Now with a checkraise, since we have a small range for doing it, he likely thinks we are bluffing more often than we are, and will call with those hands to catch our "bluff". We have gotten more value out of those hands, and he will likely still check back the turn in hopes of showing down the best hand.

Just my $0.02 cents though. This is definitely a subject I don't have tons of experience on.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Well considering villain is opening from UTG+1, and we would be calling OOP, I was have a very tight range here. A check/raise from me on this flop could really only be repping 3 hands that I would be doing this for value (15 combos QQ+). My range for calling UTG+1's open OOP here without reads would be something like 88+, AK.

Villains range (UTG+1) would be something relatively similar like 66+, AQ+, KQ. I really don't know if I would expect UTG+1 to be cbetting this board all that often, as I would suspect that he would check back a portion of his hands that has SD value.

I think this is where we're having communication breakdown. I'm talking about a player that cbets a lot.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

So, to answer you question of how I am playing my range in this spot if I'm BB. I'm predominantly check/calling, and check/folding. I'd likely check/fold the lowest part of my range of pps, as (and this might be incorrect), I don't really care to much for taking a really passive line with a very marginal hand OOP this early in the hand. Like if I call preflop with 66, I'm check/folding it on this flop given UTG+1's range of hands is likely either ahead of me now, or has decent equity with 2 overs.

Now if this was a LP vs BB situation, then I can see merit in check/raising a wider range and doing so for thinner value. Then I could see reasons for check/raising like QJ, expecting villains to level themselves into calls with TT, JJ, QT, etc. And these are hands that if we had just check/called villain would likely pot control the turn with and check behind. Now with a checkraise, since we have a small range for doing it, he likely thinks we are bluffing more often than we are, and will call with those hands to catch our "bluff". We have gotten more value out of those hands, and he will likely still check back the turn in hopes of showing down the best hand.

Just my $0.02 cents though. This is definitely a subject I don't have tons of experience on.

Check your poker tracker stats for heads up on paired rainbow flops (if this is possible, i haven't used PT in a while). I don't have any kind of sample set on a site with decent HHs. Against most opponents, you can make an argument for playing aggressively on this kind of board. Laggs and taggs get check/raised, weak tight players fold when bet into, loose/passives get value-towned or checked down with.

This was from a shorty session, but I think it illustrates my point.

The villain was named xXStacxzXx or something like that, which makes me chuckle...

He's a taggy reg who knows I cbet a LOT.

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (4 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($230.30)
Hero (UTG) ($160.60)
Button ($720.30)
SB ($783)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, 8
Hero raises to $14, 2 folds, BB calls $10

Flop: ($30) 2, J, J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $23, BB raises to $49.50, Hero raises to $146.60 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $129 | Rake: $2

I just almost hit the submit button when it hit me: ISF THEOREM!

Ummm.. This hand history shows exactly why I'm saying check/raising on a board like this can be a bad idea against thinking opposition. When he check/raises, he is really repping a very small range, one that he is likely to not even check/raise very often. Like he doesn't have any 2x combos in his range, and very few Jx combos. He obviously isn't going to stack off with his weakest of underpairs (55-88ish?), and he is going to be very timid about calling it off with 99,TT.

However, on the other hand if he thinks about it would you b/3b shove a Jx hand there? Or would you call and let him put it in himself on the turn? Likely the latter. As you would probably do with AA, KK, QQ if you intended to stack off (which I would facing a c/r here most likely). So by 3bet shoving here, I'm having a hard time putting you on any kind of a credible range. I could see villain getting brave here and calling with 99,TT, maybe worse.

And as far as playing aggressively on dry flops OOP. I don't really do it all that often. And you say you are talking about an individual that cbets often here. Well, it's imo that alot of individuals won't cbet the Q22r board all that often. I would think a majority of individual (given they don't have a tendency to cbet too much anyways) would check back alot of their SD hands, either conceding that you are likely ahead and they would have to fire multiple barrels, or they are likely ahead and can win at showdown but can't stand much aggression (and you likely don't call with worse).

Yes, stacks, but we have to know that our opponent is thinking on that level before adjusting. Even if he is a good player he might not level us.

Imagine that hand with full stacks.

Now get back to the last line of my last post...

ISF theorem!

I don't think he's ever written it up all nice and neat, but my understanding is that we should bluff more when our range is better than our opponent's range. In this case, as the BB, it is. The flop doesn't really change much. My problem with playing this too passively is that if we're just letting the better take it down when we miss, we're letting him take it down WAY too often. We NEED to be sticking some $ in with air, otherwise we're just giving equity away to the villain... he's the bad guy.

P.S. That particular villain probably would have fist pump called me with 66. Unless he's involved in this discussion or he's capable of leveling me THAT completely, it's difficult to call with ace high even though I've tried to build a reputation for going apeshit after the flop. If stacks were deeper, he could push over the top of my 3bet, so I probably would have folded to the check raise.

Glad to see my litttle hand has strirred up some debate!

Anyway, Zorrito wasn't playing many hands so, to me, his range wasn't that wide considering the call from the BB from an UTG+1 raise. Mind you i was playing pretty Tagg myself. Flop comes a board that misses a lot of hands in his range at this point. So I bet out after he checks figuring he missed and id take it right there with a c/bet... he calls. So the turn comes a 6, which also misses the range I put him on, he checks again. With the c/c on the flop and the check on the turn, what could he have? There's a lot of pocket pairs in his range, many of which beat my own, a slowplayed queen? not likely. With a measly pair of fours I wasn't interested in building a pot. So in the interest of pot control, I checked the turn, which pretty much announced i didn't have a queen. Then the river comes another queen. He fires out (rather quickly) 20 cents. All I beat at this point was a bluff, and a pair of 3's. I didn't believe he had a queen, but his range at this point was a pocket pair, (or a missed broadway he bluffed with). I was getting 3/1 on a call, but elected to fold.... Should I have looked him up?

In hindsight i faulted on the turn, giving up the lead pretty much made the river call a tough spot, was it a bet in response to the weakness i showed on the turn, or was it a value bet? Did he have me, or was I outplayed IP?

Somebody correct my thinking here, if it needs to be corrected that is.

In the case that you would call a bet on the river, betting the turn and checking behind on the river would probably be better, since it gives you a chance to get better hands out (albeit a small one). It's really villain dependent tho.

I'm sorry we hijacked your thread, but this discussion has been really interesting. We're no longer talking about your specific hand, but playing from the point of view of the BB in the hand and whether we can check-raise an aggressive player light on a really dry board.

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

I did say I was folding to a second barrel right?!! clearly I didn't have a queen...

actually i didn't see where you said that. My bad