Rebuys and Addons

Ok so I'm playing in this MTT with $10 buy-in and $19000 prizepot. I figured it was a cheap shot to enter considering the reward. But it has rebuys and addons. Dunno what they were. So I destack two guys with AQ vs AJ and A3.. they both come back for $10. Alright, figured that's what a rebuy would be np. So I'm going ok, at place 102 of 520 (781 initial entrants) as the first hour is over. I was only gonna invest $10 in this endeaver, so when I get this addon pop-up, click no. And then I see everyone else at my table go up 1500 chips! Eh wtf.. these addons are so cheap lol. I feel shafted. Went down 30 positions overall. You're almost "forced" to pay twice your buyin if you want to have a shot at the FT it seems. For a low BR guy like me that sucks :P.. but anyway, I'm hoping for some future luck.. ITM would be cool with such a large prizepot (first 70 places).. but I'm gonna need a lucky break probably 1 or 2 times and no bad beats to get there. Pf, we'll see.

Knew this was coming as soon as I saw your other post about trying out a rebuy tourney for the first time...

Most rebuy players add-on whenever they are allowed to, and making half a dozen or more rebuys in a tourney is not uncommon. Reason being, because players can rebuy, they are gambooling big time for stacks in an effort to build as big a stack as possible for later stages of the tourney.

You CAN win without ever rebuying or adding on but you are usually at a serious disadvantage stack size wise. So, either add-on or play freezouts instead.

Ummmmm read these for my old thoughts.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=11414

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ighlight=rebuy

Read this, for a better approach.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=18643

Ok, I'm out. 247th place, had two pair and the other guy gets a straight on the turn. Too bad. But I shoulda known there'd be a catch, $10 for $19k prize-money.. the rebuys I'm totally cool with but the addons, those are lame as hell..

And thx for the links chardrian, will read up on those.. and basically the lesson I learnt is to be either prepared to pay twice the buyin (at addon time if I get there) or don't compete in these tourneys..

you are playing out of your roll.

You have to be prepared to spend at least $50 on a tournament like that if you are going to give it a serious shot. Thats a crazy amount of buyin for a BR like yours.

10 dollars is a crazy amount of buy in for a roll like his. You've only got a couple hundred or so, right Jack?

Yeah this was a $10 lesson I got there. This happens when you're new I guess, hehe.

And without any rebuys and addons I still made top 30%.. (woulda been nice to have gotten AA or KK even just once sigh)
.. plus come to think of it I got shafted by what is maybe a bad beat even..

me: J8 (crap hand, I checked with it on the BB in case you're wondering)
him: KQ
flop: 89J

all-in, turn gave him his 10. The calculator puts me at 81% vs 19% to win this one. Meh.. anyway, probably shouldn't be too concerned even though it cost me one hour and a half for zero profit.

(edit: made a correction, I had J8, not K8, so two pair)

Your calculator sucks. He has 7 outs there from what you posted (4 tens + 3 Qs). He should have somewhere around a 28% shot (and he probably thought it was more like 40% cuz he probably thought the K was an out too).

Edit - now your calculator is much better. 4 outs = 18% I can believe.

Yeah he has 4 outs. I corrected my post right after, you musta replied too quickly to catch my edit. But I have to say I kinda misrepresented the facts. I actually pushed the AI after the turn, and (ofcourse) he called it.

The situation was that I was hoovering at 6-7M or something, 2 limpers, I checked on the bb. Got two pair, other guy throws out a raise. Now, at this point people were playing very aggressive already, and I gave it some chance of a bluff, or either AJ or KJ. So I reraised him and he called it. So I was thinking yeah, AJ or KJ.

Then the 10 fell on the turn. By this time I was already pot-committed for the most part. If I were to bail out now I'd be deep inside the danger zone too, so basically I thought 'no K or A, good!' as I had him tagged at AJ or KJ, so I pushed my chips in the middle.

The only mistake was maybe that I shoulda pushed the AI at the flop, but I actually wanted him to call to milk him for more money.

Ummm - your bigger mistake was that you didn't rebuy or add-on.

Yeah, shoulda bought the addon, but I didn't know what it was.. and as for rebuys, I was never out when they were available lol

(btw I thought the addon would bring you back to 1500 chips if you bought it, one time only when you are ousted.. so I thought, "$10 to be at 1500 in the later stages is crap".. and then I saw everyone go up 1500 chips.. d'oh)

Originally Posted by jackvance

Yeah, shoulda bought the addon, but I didn't know what it was.. and as for rebuys, I was never out when they were available lol

(btw I thought the addon would bring you back to 1500 chips if you bought it, one time only when you are ousted.. so I thought, "$10 to be at 1500 in the later stages is crap".. and then I saw everyone go up 1500 chips.. d'oh)

This is a good example of why you should understand the format of the tournament you are playing in. You dont only rebuy when you bust out, on the first hand you can, and should, rebuy as it will double your chip stack.

you shouldnt play R&A tournys if you dont have the roll to play them.

yeah guys, I know! It's just a learning experience. I went in with a "I'll pay $10 entrance and that's it, just to see how it goes".

EDIT: btw Andy.. you sure YOU understand it? Rebuy means you can go back at 1500 chips if you bust out, not add 1500 chips to whatever you have. That would be the one-time add-on. But at the time that comes around, you'll probably be way higher than 1500 anyway. (if you're not, you're not gonna get anywhere anyway, since the blinds will already be like 300/600)

Originally Posted by jackvance

yeah guys, I know! It's just a learning experience. I went in with a "I'll pay $10 entrance and that's it, just to see how it goes".

Haha yea you went in with that attitude because you didnt know what the format was. When you are working with a small bankroll you need to minimize these type of errors, ie. playing over your bankroll, playing in an event you dont understand. Yea, its a learning experience, but its usually cheaper to learn by asking questions first.

I wanna see and experience how people play at those, not get someone tell me what to do. Since I made $67 today, that $10 was expendable anyway.

Btw, look at the edit of my previous post.

Originally Posted by jackvance

EDIT: btw Andy.. you sure YOU understand it? Rebuy means you can go back at 1500 chips if you bust out, not add 1500 chips to whatever you have. That would be the one-time add-on. But at the time that comes around, you'll probably be way higher than 1500 anyway. (if you're not, you're not gonna get anywhere anyway, since the blinds will already be like 300/600)

Haha, yes I am sure I understand. You can rebuy immediately to double your chipstack, at the end of the rebuy period you are able to add on

Originally Posted by jackvance

I wanna see and experience how people play at those, not get someone tell me what to do. Since I made $67 today, that $10 was expendable anyway.

Btw, look at the edit of my previous post.

First, learn what those are. Second, if you want to see how people play in them, watch. Third, if you absolutely have to experience it, play one within your limit. And finally, simply because you made $67 does not mean anything you lose means nothing. Look over the the BR Management threads again, Im trying to help you out here so you dont go bust. Thinking the way you are isnt going to help.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Haha, yes I am sure I understand. You can rebuy immediately to double your chipstack, at the end of the rebuy period you are able to add on

No-one doubled their chipstack in the tourney I was in. When they got destacked, they rebought and came back at 1500. And after the hour, they all bought an addon and went up 1500 chips.

Second, if you want to see how people play in them, watch.

It's not the same. Passively watching is nothing compared to actively participating. In the latter case all your senses are on edge and you actually learn a lot faster. Plus you can feel the pressure and all those important things you have to get used to when trying to get better at this game.

Third, if you absolutely have to experience it, play one within your limit.

How can I play a "big money tournament" within my limits?

And finally, simply because you made $67 does not mean anything you lose means nothing.

Yes it does. Yesterday I was at $40, now I was at $107. So yesterday I was in the danger of going bankrupt on a few bad beats, while today I felt "safer" since I was up $47 from when I started. Plus read below.

Look over the the BR Management threads again, Im trying to help you out here so you dont go bust. Thinking the way you are isnt going to help.

Apparently it does because I've been making rapid progress doing it 'my way'. I learned the rules of the game little over 2 weeks ago. Started playing online for real money little over 1 week ago. I deposited $60 and was fully willing to blow all of this as a 'learning experience'. In the beginning, sometimes I called a bet even if I had a bad feeling about it, just because I wanted to see the other guy's cards to see if I was right about my estimates. This is not "good play", but when you're learning you wanna try stuff and get feedback to see where you stand. This is the same. You do stuff, even if it isn't "the best thing to do", just because you want to rake up experience quickly. It's not like I'm planning on consistently playing out of my BR. And I learned a lot here. For one, that it seems like I can hold my own, even in these big money tournaments. I didn't freak out, just played my game. And without any rebuys or addons I made top 1/3. So when I make the BR, I'm definately gonna play more of these.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Haha, yes I am sure I understand. You can rebuy immediately to double your chipstack, at the end of the rebuy period you are able to add on

No-one doubled their chipstack in the tourney I was in. When they got destacked, they rebought and came back at 1500. And after the hour, they all bought an addon and went up 1500 chips.

I guess Im just imagining that I did it in the rebuys Ive played in and that it is considered the correct way to play them

Originally Posted by jackvance

Second, if you want to see how people play in them, watch.

It's not the same. Passively watching is nothing compared to actively participating. In the latter case all your senses are on edge and you actually learn a lot faster. Plus you can feel the pressure and all those important things you have to get used to when trying to get better at this game.

Which brings me to my third point, play one within your BR.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Third, if you absolutely have to experience it, play one within your limit.

How I can I play a "big money tournament" within my limits?

By building your BR and skill level so you can afford to play in one and so that you are more than just dead money

Originally Posted by jackvance

And finally, simply because you made $67 does not mean anything you lose means nothing.

Yes it does. Yesterday I was at $40, now I was at $107. So yesterday I was in the danger of going bankrupt on a few bad beats, while today I felt "safer" since I was up $47 from when I started. Plus read below.

So you felt safe risking 10% of your BR on one tournament in which you werent even sure what the format was? Anybody can have the skill to be a good poker player, what most lack is the discipline.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Look over the the BR Management threads again, Im trying to help you out here so you dont go bust. Thinking the way you are isnt going to help.

Apparently it does because I've been making rapid progress doing it 'my way'. I learned the rules of the game little over 2 weeks ago. Started playing online for real money little over 1 week ago. I deposited $60 and was fully willing to blow all of this as a 'learning experience'. In the beginning, sometimes I called a bet even if I had a bad feeling about it, just because I wanted to see the other guy's cards to see if I was right about my estimates. This is not "good play", but when you're learning you wanna try stuff and get feedback to see where you stand. This is the same. You do stuff, even if it isn't "the best thing to do", just because you want to rake up experience quickly. It's not like I'm planning on consistently playing out of my BR. And I learned a lot here. For one, that it seems like I can hold my own, even in these big money tournaments. I didn't freak out, just played my game. And without any rebuys or addons I made top 1/3. So when I make the BR, I'm definately gonna play more of these.

Again, this mentality is going to make it incredibly easy for you to go broke. You have been playing for a week, simply because you are up now does not mean you are a winning player, you are being too results oriented. When I started I had a very similar attitude, although not as standoff-ish towards somebody trying to give me advice. I deposited $50 and played the $6 SNGs at PP, got lucky early and built that to about $100, then moved up to the $11s where I quickly built my role to about $350. At this point I thought I was on top of the world and an incredibly player, but I couldnt be further from the truth. During this entire period I was playing $0.25/$0.5 Limit and $0.10/$0.25 NL on the side which I had no idea what I was really doing and aided in my crash down. It wasnt until I got down to $160 that I realized I wasnt all that great. I cashed out and read up, and then redeposited on Stars and have since been following strict BR management guidelines to make sure I dont go broke. Im speaking from experience, albeit little in comparison to others, where simply because you are winning today doesnt mean you will win tomorrow.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

I guess Im just imagining that I did it in the rebuys Ive played in and that it is considered the correct way to play them

I guess you are.

Which brings me to my third point, play one within your BR.

I don't think you quite get the point.. I wanted to play in a tournament where I could potentially win a lot of money.

By building your BR and skill level so you can afford to play in one and so that you are more than just dead money

So what if I'm dead money? When I started playing I was "dead money" too since I didn't have much experience in the game.

So you felt safe risking 10% of your BR on one tournament in which you werent even sure what the format was? Anybody can have the skill to be a good poker player, what most lack is the discipline.

I felt safe investing $10 in a new experience. Since I'm not so afraid anymore to go bankrupt.

Again, this mentality is going to make it incredibly easy for you to go broke. You have been playing for a week, simply because you are up now does not mean you are a winning player, you are being too results oriented. When I started I had a very similar attitude, although not as standoff-ish towards somebody trying to give me advice. I deposited $50 and played the $6 SNGs at PP, got lucky early and built that to about $100, then moved up to the $11s where I quickly built my role to about $350. At this point I thought I was on top of the world and an incredibly player, but I couldnt be further from the truth. During this entire period I was playing $0.25/$0.5 Limit and $0.10/$0.25 NL on the side which I had no idea what I was really doing and aided in my crash down. It wasnt until I got down to $160 that I realized I wasnt all that great. I cashed out and read up, and then redeposited on Stars and have since been following strict BR management guidelines to make sure I dont go broke. Im speaking from experience, albeit little in comparison to others, where simply because you are winning today doesnt mean you will win tomorrow.

I'm not even considering moving up a stake until by BR is atleast $300. What you are talking about, as is evident from your personal example, is consistently playing over your BR becauseyou think you're a poker god. What I'm talking about is, when you're learning the game in all its facets, the willingness to be some "dead money" if it means you rake up experience faster.

I am grateful that you want to prohibit me from making the same mistakes you made, but really, this is a different thing.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by andy-akb

I guess Im just imagining that I did it in the rebuys Ive played in and that it is considered the correct way to play them

I guess you are.

Just to clear this up.

From the pokerstars website - http://www.pokerstars.com/tournaments2.html:

Here are the facts about rebuy tournaments:

There is a "rebuy period" at the beginning of the tournament. A typical rebuy period might be the first hour of the event (until the first break starts). Once that period is over, no more rebuys are permitted.

During the rebuy period, there may be a fixed number of rebuys available, or an unlimited number.

If you run out of chips, you will automatically be offered a rebuy (if one is available). At any time, you can click on the dealer tray and select the rebuy option. If you're not eligible for a rebuy (because you've reached the maximum number of rebuys), you'll get a message to that effect.

In general, you may rebuy any time in the middle of a hand when your stack size at the start of that hand is equal to or less than the original number of chips in the tournament. This means you can rebuy once before the tournament even starts!

Originally Posted by jackvance

Which brings me to my third point, play one within your BR.

I don't think you quite get the point.. I wanted to play in a tournament where I could potentially win a lot of money.

I completely understand your point as I had the same attitude. "There is so much more money to be won if I play at the higher level, it cant be that much tougher, and Im only going to do it once." If its a one time shot at a tourney like that, then it isnt a big deal, Im just saying that this isnt the best way to manage your bankroll. You shouldnt have to spend money in a situation to learn rapidly. I cant imagine you learned $10 worth by playing that tournament.

Originally Posted by jackvance

By building your BR and skill level so you can afford to play in one and so that you are more than just dead money

So what if I'm dead money? When I started playing I was "dead money" too since I didn't have much experience in the game.

You dont want to be dead money, if you are going to play you should think you have an edge on the field, if you dont think you have an edge, then you shouldnt play atleast not when you are just a beginner.

Originally Posted by jackvance

So you felt safe risking 10% of your BR on one tournament in which you werent even sure what the format was? Anybody can have the skill to be a good poker player, what most lack is the discipline.

I felt safe investing $10 in a new experience. Since I'm not so afraid anymore to go bankrupt.

Alright, if you think you got $10 worth out of the experience then awesome. I hear there is a $1050 buy in tourney on Stars this weekend, play some $100NL and win a few hands then buy in, that should be a great experience.

Originally Posted by jackvance

--SNIP--

I'm not even considering moving up a stake until by BR is atleast $300. What you are talking about, as is evident from your personal example, is consistently playing over your BR becauseyou think you're a poker god. What I'm talking about is, when you're learning the game in all its facets, the willingness to be some "dead money" if it means you rake up experience faster.

I am grateful that you want to prohibit me from making the same mistakes you made, but really, this is a different thing.

Apparently. Keep us updated on your progress.

jack

take a step back for one second.

You are not absorbing anything being told to you.

You are just telling the posters why you are right and they are wrong.

It is fine to argue your viewpoint - in fact it helps the boards.

But you won't better yourself as a player until you actually absorb the info being told.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Just to clear this up.

From the pokerstars website - http://www.pokerstars.com/tournaments2.html:
(...)

That just makes it weird I saw no-one in this tournament do this. All I saw was a couple of guys playing like maniacs, and rebuying in at 1500 when their stacks depleted. Dunno what the deal is, maybe different variations at different sites?

I completely understand your point as I had the same attitude. "There is so much more money to be won if I play at the higher level, it cant be that much tougher, and Im only going to do it once."

This must be where we miscommunicated. I'm not thinking any such things. I'm very weary of the higher level, that's why I wanted to take a look if I could compete at higher levels and how differently the game would potentially be played and if I'd play like a dolt due to pressure or not etc. I have no intentions of doing this consistently until have the BR for it.

You dont want to be dead money, if you are going to play you should think you have an edge on the field, if you dont think you have an edge, then you shouldnt play atleast not when you are just a beginner.

With that reasoning I shouldn't have started playing poker for money in the first place..

Alright, if you think you got $10 worth out of the experience then awesome. I hear there is a $1050 buy in tourney on Stars this weekend, play some $100NL and win a few hands then buy in, that should be a great experience.

Completely unrelated situation. You're just ranting now.

Apparently. Keep us updated on your progress.

As if I could not.. lol..

You are just telling the posters why you are right and they are wrong.

Well no doubt I'm an arrogant bastard, but when I think I'm right, I'll defend my position. Like when three different people stepped in and said my math was wrong (some pot odds thread), but I simply knew I was right. And then you (I think it was?) stepped in and corrected them all.

But you won't better yourself as a player until you actually absorb the info being told.

Trust me, I'm absorbing so much my head is about to explode. The things I learned here in a week woulda taken me months (at the very least) to learn without this great resource. And the thing is, I actually really do manage my BR. It's just that I consider myself being purely in the learning phase, so I am willing to blow some money, if I find I can spare it, for experience. When my game stabilizes, this'll ofcourse decrease.

My BR management: bought in at $60. Should be $200 but I didn't have that atm. Was willing to lose it all to learn a new skill.

Had my ups, but harder downs at ring. Made $20 in 5 $1 MTTs which kept me safe. To cap my losses, made a rule to quit for the day if I lost $10. So I buy in at $10, if I lose it, over for the day. As long as I'm running positive, I can keep playing. Today extended my rule to $20 as I multitable now. If they're gone, it's over for the day. If I win, I can keep playing if I like. I've also made an excel-sheet today to keep progress of my winnings and losses, in order to be find out my "average" over a longer period. (inspired by Renton's posts) Should my BR ever get to $300 or more, I'll move up to 20NL. That's the plan.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Today extended my rule to $20 as I multitable now.

Don't do more than 2 tables for the time being. Learning to make reads online is much more important than getting in more hands per hour at your stage of development as a player.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Don't do more than 2 tables for the time being. Learning to make reads online is much more important than getting in more hands per hour at your stage of development as a player.

Yeah I'm sticking to two. Three is the goal I am going for though, but now is definately not the time.

My biggest problem (leak) atm, if I analyse the short span of my poker games, is the following cycle:

I'm calm. I can play my calculative game calmly and I win money. I take a break, and get on a high cuz it's going well. Then when I play again, I can't get in my game anymore and lose. If I keep playing then, I'll just keep losing money. Until I get some sleep, then it "resets" and the cycle starts again.
Anyone else have this? Or is it just a personal character flaw? All in all I hope it'll ease out with time..