Reads v's Stats

An old horse I thought I'd beat again incase he's not quite dead. Just made a reply about this to another thread. Way too many people only post stats (if that) when they post a hand. They really should post actual reads as well. How they actually play can often make a big difference to how we play. Heres a few examples from hands I posted in my Op recently. Think about which lot of info you'd prefer to have when reviewing a hand:


Hand 1

A: 65/15
B: Villain is 65/15 and likes pressing buttons (i.e., all his raises are min-raises and all his bets are pot). He does it with all kinds of weak crap and then folds to raises.


Hand 2
A: 63/0/0.9
B: Villain is 63/0 and very passive. His donk on turn means he now either has 2P or he floated flop with AJ. I've seen the mb on river before, it means he thinks his good hand might not be good anymore.

Hand 3
A: 56/17/3
B: Limper is 56/17. I've seen him get aggressive and stack off with some really strange hands before (MP 3-bet flop and psb turn and river). Didnt have a good feel/memory at this time though.


Sometimes you dont have good reads, so just say so, but as you can see, the more info you give the easier it is for people to give useful advice. Stats rarely give good info about postflop play unless they're really extreme.

If you're not picking up on these kinds of reads, maybe you should consider playing less tables until you do.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

If you're not picking up on these kinds of reads, maybe you should consider playing less tables until you do.

This.

Stats are mostly irrelevant if you can't identify how it translates to someone's game. Reads are something we all need to work on!

I fell into the stats tarp a lot lately. I used to play HUDless up to 50NL... so it was a lot just 4-tabling and looking at what hands they showed down and constantly taking notes. I kind of lost that when I started using a HUD.

And it's not just that you might misinterpret ranges or aggression, you also miss the flow of the game if you don't follow the action. Especially less solid players are very affected by past hands. - Has the villain just lost a big pot, have I sucked out on him this session... how aggressive have I played at this table - those are valid things to consider.
One of the most misleading stats for me was the fold-to-c-bet lately. I'm like "blah, he folds like 80%, I has xx, lol-bet", then I see him go to showdown with bottom pair and realize I'm running 35/30/60 and I've pounded on the poor man for 30 minutes. Even the worst adjust in some way.

I find bet sizing to be a huge one. For instance someone might have 30% raise c-bet as a stat so you think they're FOS a lot, however if you've paid attention you would have noticed that they min-raise cbets a lot as a bluff, and std raise with 2P or better (or vice versa). If the first one, then you can just raise their minraises with air confidently, but if all you know is that they raise a lot, you might decide to play back by going to showdown with TPTK after they did a std raise because you hadnt picked up on the real read. Same thing when they have 100% donk bet, but they min donk with air and 2/3 psb donk with TP or better, etc.

Although I do use my HUD, I think reads and notes on players are more important at times. I actually have been starting my sessions with the HUD off, then launching it after a bit. This may also be from seldom using my HUD when I play PLO.

And the bet sizing example is a great one. Here's a few examples I find:

My HUD cannot tell me that a 20/18 player will raise/shove a flop bet that has one over for him with a mid PP, my notes can/do.

Hud doesn't say that a very loose passive fish will always bluff shove a missed draw and put a milker bet out when he hits, my notes can.

I definately love my HUD, but there is so much more that you can learn if you dont robotically depend on it.

reads>>>>>>>stats, stats don't tell you about lines villains take with specific types of hands and what lines they view as strong or weak. In addition, stats give you the knowledge that villain is making a particular play with x% of hands whereas reads tell you what specific hands make up that x%. Reads are also more varied and versatile. Reads can clue you into metagame aspects that stats can't touch.

Originally Posted by Parasurama

reads>>>>>>>stats, stats don't tell you about lines villains take with specific types of hands and what lines they view as strong or weak. In addition, stats give you the knowledge that villain is making a particular play with x% of hands whereas reads tell you what specific hands make up that x%. Reads are also more varied and versatile. Reads can clue you into metagame aspects that stats can't touch.

I quoted this in another thread, but the Mets' longtime announcer Ralph Kiner said that statistics are like bikinis-- they show you a lot, but they don't show you everything.

Originally Posted by LawDude

I quoted this in another thread, but the Mets' longtime announcer Ralph Kiner said that statistics are like bikinis-- they show you a lot, but they don't show you everything.

oh how i wish they would.

i trust my reads more than my stats lately but i think thats turning into a leak. notes are important but online poker is a numbers game after all.

Originally Posted by Sportsmen

It's is dinamic game. Only reads

call me a cynic but I have a read on you - password hunter. Posting a few words like this as you have for many posts in the last last 24 hours doesn't help anybody to learn or improve their game. Give some reasoning behind your answers so that people can learn how to apply the same information in different scenarios or point out where your logic is faulty so that you can learn.
Thats how you become a valued member of the community.You posted a hand at 50NL and also talked about how freerolls are a great school in other posts which kinda suggests to me that you need to read the posts on bankroll management.