Read A Book Yo

Both the quality of our players and discussions here on FTR can massively improve if we all just...read a book.

In the BC there seems to be alot of posts asking 'what hands should I play' or 'how do I isolate', or 'what should I steal blinds with'. And then after a post like this is created about 20 people answer, a few deviating from the norm of responses, but mostly just the same answer repeated in different words with a little extra thrown in. We all rack up the posts after stating the obvious or just quoting something that is written clearly and precisely in an article and then move on to the next thread where the process is repeated. We look so knowledgeable with all our post tickers soaring through the roof, but we fail to realize the impact of quantity v.s quality. Of course not all threads are as bad as I sound like I'm making them out to be, there are alot of very good threads posted. IMO the hand history analysis threads are some of the most important regarding development because most of the hands presented are strange situations where we really need to apply our poker knowledge and put some deep thought into the situation on hand. We have great threads here on FTR, but I think increasing the ratio of great threads to poor threads will have some serious benefits.

But....
In order to make sure more threads come out initiating a good contructive discussion rather than just answers like 'fold pre'' you need to do a little work aside from just playing cards and reviewing hands. This is especially important if you don't have a strong grasp of basic concepts. I said it before and I'll say it again...read a book.

IMO, if you don't know what hands to play from where and why, read a book or some of the very written articles here on FTR. Reading through the strategy articles is a great way to expand your poker knowledge and clarify anything that is unsure. Read everything you can get your hands on, and then re-read it! Read it 10+ times if you must, just make sure its read.

Now, if something in the books/articles you are reading DOES NOT MAKE SENSE (i.e. 'why would I want to raise hand 'x' to isolate this player when I could just call'?) then starting up a thread for discussion is a great idea because alot of people may also have the same problem and not know the answer. This will intiate a very productive discussion because the question will be more defined and repsonses will be as well.

Some of the best poker discoveries will be made by going out yourself and searching different books and articles (plenty on this site alone) and reading up on the concepts that are not clear. Then, if you still don't understand the why or how of a general concept, make a post, and let everyone know what's troubling you. Asking the WHY rather than the HOW is wayy more productive, because the how is already available to you, but the why may not be as clear. Asking why digs deep, it helps us understand the reasoning behind the moves we make, and will allow us to see the correct line when a new situation arises.

Getting spoon fed won't do any good. It may save you the 5 minutes it took to locate that 'stealing 101' article, but it limits potential. So before you make a post regarding how to do something, chances are the answer is right in front of your screen just a few clicks away. Of course the 'why' or the 'how about in this specific scenerio' are definately great questions for discussion. The general how is available to anyone, but situational specific hows and whys may not be so obvious or printed for you in steps.

IMO if we read more, this will also improve the depth of hand history analysis. Self-educating yourself will allow you to better select which hands you felt were played incorrectly at the tables, whereas without any knowledge of starting hand selection or post flop play, every hand is a guess because everything is surprsing.

Sorry for the long post. I understand reading can be annoying for some, but setting goals (i.e. read 1 new FTR article a day) will make things easier and will up the motivation to learn. Looks like I said 'read' a little too much in this post, but I don't think the point can be stressed enough.

Happy reading everyone.

-Micro'

(Title edited to give the thread more of a fun appeal )

The only thing you haven't considered is that writing responses to people who can't be bothered to read a book is benificial to those who have. I like writing answers to basic questions because I know I understand the ideas myself if I can teach them to someone else.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Asking the WHY rather than the HOW is wayy more productive, b
-Micro'

I adopted this mentality for a long time.

To be honest, a lot of the better players kept telling me, don't worry about why, just do it and move on with your life.

almost drove me to 2p2

The sad truth is the majority of individuals here in the want to improve, but do not want to take the time and put forth the effort that is necessary to really improve. Sure a lot of individuals come to online poker forums looking to improve. A decent % even become active and start threads on topics they don't understand or post questions/advice. However, the % of individuals who read the responses that they were given, and actually try to understand teh why behind the responses is even smaller.

Despite what alot of individuals think, getting better at poker isn't incredibly difficult (at least not at first). It just takes time, effort, and some proper guidance.

Originally Posted by killerkebab

The only thing you haven't considered is that writing responses to people who can't be bothered to read a book is benificial to those who have. I like writing answers to basic questions because I know I understand the ideas myself if I can teach them to someone else.

True. But if one can't be bothered to read a book they either need to A) re-evaluate their goals or B) accept the fact that they will not make it too far in poker.

I'm not trying to say answering basic questions is bad, as it will help re-instill basic concepts. The point I'm trying to make is that doing some research before posting will be more beneficial then asking for example 'how do I play Aces'. This goes back to the why part I mentioned. A post is way better if it asks 'Why should I play Aces like this preflop...' as opposed to 'How should I play Aces preflop'.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Asking the WHY rather than the HOW is wayy more productive, b
-Micro'

I adopted this mentality for a long time.

To be honest, a lot of the better players kept telling me, don't worry about why, just do it and move on with your life.

almost drove me to 2p2

Sorry I'm not sure if I interpreted this correctly but are you saying that forgetting why we do something is better than just knowing what to do? Because there usually isn't a clear cut path to every decision we make in poker, and to be able to make correct plays in an infinite number of possible scenerios, we really need to understand why we do what we do. Of course it isn't really necessary if you just want to play microstakes for the rest of your life since playing like a robot can still yield profit, but eventually understanding the why side of things will become necessary. Might as well start that understanding now.

no.. instead of asking how, I asked why.. I got an answer that I don't even want to think about regurgitating onto the boards, because they are a waste of everyones time.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

no.. instead of asking how, I asked why.. I got an answer that I don't even want to think about regurgitating onto the boards, because they are a waste of everyones time.

Okay I don't think asking how to do something is the wrong approach. Asking for example: 'How would I play this hand here in this difficult spot where this, this and this has happened' sounds okay. Or 'how do I know if my opponent is bluffing here or not' sounds reasonable.

The point I was trying to make was don't ask how to do things that occur in general situations that have answers printed clearly and precisely in the strategy article section. Such as 'what hands should I isolate with'. To answer a question like that all we need to do is loacte the article on the subject and read it. If something in the article is unclear, (usually the question will be 'why should I do that' or 'why does it work') then starting a thread on it will be highly beneificial. Asking how to calcualte a complicated EV calculation is however a good question to ask, and it doesn't involve why. Or, 'how can I adjust my raising range on the button to adjust against a loose player on my right and a tight player on my left when there is a maniac in the big blind'?

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Asking the WHY rather than the HOW is wayy more productive, b
-Micro'

I adopted this mentality for a long time.

To be honest, a lot of the better players kept telling me, don't worry about why, just do it and move on with your life.

almost drove me to 2p2

I see you also fall into the trap of stereotyping by assigning the phrase 'better player' with '# of posts/join date' etc. No offence, but just because you have nearly 1000 posts does not mean you are better than someone who has less. It's like looking at someone who just joined a book club and assuming they've never read before.

There's a reason why this is called Beginners Circle. Because it's for beginners. Rather than criticizing new players for asking the same questions, why not sticky a more extensive guide or an FAQ that answers those basic questions.

If you've actually read poker books, you'll notice that alot of them give different advice.

As far as the math goes.. not everyone is a math major or math whiz here. Some of the math is easy to understand such as probability of hitting outs and pot odds but other math more advanced math formulas boggle my mind. It'd be great if someone would explain those in lamens terms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8

Originally Posted by Revolver123

There's a reason why this is called Beginners Circle. Because it's for beginners. Rather than criticizing new players for asking the same questions, why not sticky a more extensive guide or an FAQ that answers those basic questions.

If you've actually read poker books, you'll notice that alot of them give different advice.

As far as the math goes.. not everyone is a math major or math whiz here. Some of the math is easy to understand such as probability of hitting outs and pot odds but other math more advanced math formulas boggle my mind. It'd be great if someone would explain those in lamens terms.

Yeah, and there isn't necessarily one specific 'ideal' way to play poker, which explains why a TAG player can beat the game, but a LAG player can too.

All poker books do have one thing in common though, they favour (in general) being aggressive over being passive.

Originally Posted by Parasurama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8

LOL.

To those just discovering this thread now...
This is basically what I was trying to say, forget my explanation and just listen to the video.

Originally Posted by Revolver123

There's a reason why this is called Beginners Circle. Because it's for beginners. Rather than criticizing new players for asking the same questions, why not sticky a more extensive guide or an FAQ that answers those basic questions.

Your kidding right? Have you looked at the Digest? I would assume not because it's stickied, and so is the guide on how to post a hand, and we know you fail at that. The digest combined with the search function is definitely underused and is about 90% of what an individual needs to get a grasp on the basics.


Edit - hmmm.. I just realized my "I would assume not because it's stickied, and so is the guide on how to post a hand, and we know you fail at that" statement might be an inappropriate putdown seeing as how the past few hands you posted didn't show results.

Therefore, I think something along the lines of "You're kidding right? This coming from the guy who refuses to read strategy posts because it might poison his thought process?" might be more appropriate.

And if you just so happen to not be the guy I am talking about, then I retain the right to still be an asshole because you bitched out spenda for moving your thread to the tilt forum.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

The digest combined with the search function is definitely underused and is about 90% of what an individual needs to get a grasp on the basics.

Thank you stacks. This is precisely why I wrote this thread in the first place. Every time I make a recommendation for someone to read an article that is written in there, I have a feeling it wasn't read when I see the same general questions asked again and again - even when the answer is written explicitly in an article, or repeated in yesterday's thread and so on.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

The digest combined with the search function is definitely underused and is about 90% of what an individual needs to get a grasp on the basics.

Thank you stacks. This is precisely why I wrote this thread in the first place. Every time I make a recommendation for someone to read an article that is written in there, I have a feeling it wasn't read when I see the same general questions asked again and again - even when the answer is written explicitly in an article, or repeated in yesterday's thread and so on.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

The sad truth is the majority of individuals here want to improve, but do not want to take the time and put forth the effort that is necessary to really improve.

Using a search function or reading an article takes more time than asking someone "what hands should I raise", "what should my raise size be?", etc. So the majority of individuals revert to starting a thread to ask those questions. And these are the people who will continue to hang around and wonder why they aren't improving.

Don't get me wrong.. I've been at this online poker thing close to a year. I've asked my fair share of stupid questions, and gave my fair share of stupid advice. But I've also spent countless hours reading hundreds of articles, books, discussing poker with others, watching videos, and reviewing sessions.

Did I benefit from the thread I have started in this 1 year span? Absolutely! However, not nearly as much as I did from all of the above things I did, aka self study. It really is true that we can tell you just about everything you will need to know about poker, but if you don't understand why, then you will fail to apply it and you will not profit.

Nice. Stacks you are basically a role model for anyone trying to learn the game and after giving your insight, I'm sure that if anyone new to the game takes what you just said seriously, they will end up in a similar position like you where owning $200NL is a habit.

I think this leads to the grand conclusion of the thread (read a book) which is also the title of this thread (read a book (please)) and the general direction of the entire thread (read a book).

And for those of you reading, it doesn't necessarily have to be a book, the articles written in the digest are a great place to dig up some information. So in other words, just read something folks. You'll be glad you did it.

LOL Phil Hell-mouth has a book? I don't know if I plan on reading that one. Anyone read it?

Chapter 4: How to be a Whiny, Arrogant Little Shitmuncher is a particular favourite

Tools of Poker has a book club running right now reading Professional No Limit Hold'em. Might want to check that out.

Originally Posted by bigred

Tools of Poker has a book club running right now reading Professional No Limit Hold'em. Might want to check that out.

I really want to get myself a copy of this book. Just a few more FPP's on Stars and it's being ordered. Thx for the recommendation.

Great thread!

Makes me want to go to the library and read a book yo!

Some of the math is easy to understand such as probability of hitting outs and pot odds but other math more advanced math formulas boggle my mind. It'd be great if someone would explain those in lamens terms.

What 'more advanced' math are you talking about? Post a link or something?

Maybe something like this?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_probabilities

I've spent 3 years pissing about in a physics degree but am actually looking forward to reading Chen and Ankenman's 'The Mathematics of Poker' where I can apply a little nous to a game I actually enjoy!

I also spent an hour the other night talking to spenda about expectation, equity, pot odds and implied odds. For his time, I'd be more than willing to write up a concise explanatory article covering this and also look into the things that are deemed difficult.

I'd like to know what people want in this respect and will do it, but often feel like there's lots of information out there and my post wouldn't be that useful (it'd actually be an article in pdf format most likely, though I might convert the LaTeX into a format that'd work on a webpage).

The only thing you haven't considered is that writing responses to people who can't be bothered to read a book is benificial to those who have. I like writing answers to basic questions because I know I understand the ideas myself if I can teach them to someone else.

It's also nice putting down on a piece of paper (electronic paper) your thought processes and consolidating what you know - or think you know.

Originally Posted by loonychune

The only thing you haven't considered is that writing responses to people who can't be bothered to read a book is benificial to those who have. I like writing answers to basic questions because I know I understand the ideas myself if I can teach them to someone else.

It's also nice putting down on a piece of paper (electronic paper) your thought processes and consolidating what you know - or think you know.

This is for sure a good idea. Alot of good players seem to recommend keeping a journal, blog, or whatever to sort out your thoughts and monitor your progress.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

LOL Phil Hell-mouth has a book? I don't know if I plan on reading that one. Anyone read it?

The guy writing the essay-post entitled 'read a book' doesn't even know what books are out there? Come on now.

The best book with helmuth involved is either kill phil or red em and reap, niether of which are actually written by him.

Just reading a book gets you nowhere near where your head needs to be to play poker well or even think about it in a logical fashion. Think of it as if it's learning a language. You need both instruction and experience: plimseur and that spanish soap opera channel - not on mute this time. Books are good, they help, but for the beginner learning that you're talking about, there's nothing like walking thru a few hand histories with an experienced player.

The forums and a little money in an account is enough to learn on. And the more bad analogies the experienced players come up with, the better everyone gets.

btw... where the hell is Fnord?

oops, messed this post up see one below.

The guy writing the essay-post entitled 'read a book' doesn't even know what books are out there? Come on now.

LOL don't try and act like you know everything buddy. Sorry if I don't have the list of all books on the market readily available off the top of my head.

Just reading a book gets you nowhere near where your head needs to be to play poker well or even think about it in a logical fashion.

No reeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly? Excellent job stating the obvious.
But you won't get very far by just by playing though without knowing wtf to do?

Look, the point I was trying to make was there seems too much playing going on and not enough study when it comes to some people because posting crap like 'OMG I FLOPPED THE NUTS WHAT DO I DO?' is just a huge hint that some players not doing enough study away from the tables. If you actually read my post you may have caught onto the message. I'm not ranking in-depth reading about poker higher than getting experience at the tables, but do you really think its best to sit at a table knowing nothing, or to come in armed and ready with some knowledge?

Thanks Micro2macro you've inspired me to reread Supersystem (or maybe it was the song :P ) this time hopefully ill understand someof it. Most of it went over my head first time, which was over 6months ago. Cheers

The forums are a lot like the games themselves. The players that suck really bad are the ones you never see again at the tables. The people that post about beats, etc. either end up getting a lot better or never coming back to the forum. The ones that will actually read this post are already the ones that will end up getting better.

Originally Posted by dev

The forums are a lot like the games themselves. The players that suck really bad are the ones you never see again at the tables. The people that post about beats, etc. either end up getting a lot better or never coming back to the forum. The ones that will actually read this post are already the ones that will end up getting better.

That is so true.