A "quiz" on blindstealing

Looking at my stats in PT i saw that my attempt to steal was at 14, which is way too low. So in an attempt to raise that #, I started thinking about the different factors when attempting to steal. I came up with a set of questions that I have yet to answered myself, but figured I would post them here first.

I think it would be beneficial to some (if not all) to treat these questions like a quiz, and write down your answers, post them, and then check out what everyone else has to say. If there are differing answers, hopefully this leads to some good discussion.

1. What types of opponents should we be stealing from?

2. What type of hands should we be stealing with?

3. What is our target attempt to steal %?

4. How does stack size (ours and theirs) affect our decisions?

5. If we're on the button and the cut off limps, how does this affect our strategy?

6. Can stealing the BB from the SB be profitable? What's different about it than stealing from the button?

7. When called, what types of flops should we be c-betting?

8. What flops should we be checking?

If you think of more questions that I missed, feel free to post them and I'll add them to this post so all can see.

I'm interested to see what everyone has to say.

Originally Posted by RML604

1. What types of opponents should we be stealing from? Everyone.. The frequency and range with which we should steal will change depending on opponent though.

2. What type of hands should we be stealing with? This is kinda an odd question imo. Mainly because we are just opening a wider range. One that we feel is profitable against the opponents in the blind. If the blinds are really tight you can open an enormous amount of hands from LP (BU/CO, assuming if in CO button isn't getting crazy)..

If they are on the looser side, and seem to be actively "defending" their blinds then you will probably need to cut down on the frequency with which you steal. As you will be faced with more 3bets, and more postflop aggression when they start to call and c/r alot of flops.

3. What is our target attempt to steal %? This is obviously going to differ depending on the opponents in the blinds. But I would say 30+% is a good start. Lower and you are probably missing out on money..

4. How does stack size (ours and theirs) affect our decisions? Well, as stacks get smaller and assuming villains are adjusting and shoving a wider range when shortstacked in this situation, I would try to tighten my range to hands I can open and profitably call their shove with. As stacks get deeper, I would be inclined to open a wider range of hands that have good implied odds for their ability to form nut hands (such as suited gappers, large suited cards, etc). But I'm probably stealing with those hands on average anyways.

5. If we're on the button and the cut off limps, how does this affect our strategy? Not too awful much. I might decide to limp behind some hands that I would normally raise with, but I would still be isolating a wide range. Because isolating is sooooo damn profitable. They love the limp/fold or limp/call, check/fold line.

6. Can stealing the BB from the SB be profitable? What's different about it than stealing from the button? Yes it can be very profitable. However, in general, you should be stealing less in the SB than from the BU. Why you might ask? POSITION. You obviously need to consider the individual in the BB. If he is a good player, then he will likely be calling/3betting a wider range to your SB open. And this hinges on him being in positon. Whereas on the BU if he does this then he will be OOP, and in a sticky situation.

7. When called, what types of flops should we be c-betting? Too broad of a question. Depends on your range and villains range.

8. What flops should we be checking? See above.

Oops, I meant to post this in BC. I guess if any mods feel it'd be more useful there, feel free to move it over there.

Some players start at 25c/50c, so here would be a good spot for it too. Plus some players are too nitty at 25c/50c + and have <10% ATS. In which case, this thread should help them out.

With that said I think stacks did a pretty damn good job on the 'quiz'

just steal with everything vs nits, good cards vs superloose players, and anything reasonable vs decent/medium tightness players.

Originally Posted by The Ktastrophe

just steal with everything vs nits, good cards vs superloose players, and anything reasonable vs decent/medium tightness players.

Define reasonable. 56s, 89o? How do we adjust if the small blind is a nit, but the big blind is super loose? Vice versa?

Originally Posted by RML604

Oops, I meant to post this in BC. I guess if any mods feel it'd be more useful there, feel free to move it over there.

{from FR}

I do not think it is good to think about it as a "steal". Every move you do should be well thought of and without a plan a "blind steal" mindset can be EV-.

Reasons for raising preflop

- Build a big pot when equity is high or opponent is weak on later streets.

- To isolate players, fewer people to flop.

- To increase likelihood of getting a good position post flop.

- To manipulate players (set them off, stop them from stealing, make them uncomfortable)

- Fold equity- chance of winning pot without seeing a flop.

- To gain initiative on flop. Preflop raiser has psychological advantage and can represent bigger hands post flop.

1. Opponents that are very tight preflop that will fold to most raises and loose opponents who play weaktight postflop where c-betting will be very profitable.

2. The best hands in the range of hands that we normally wouldn't raise with so that we at least have some value going into a flop.

3. Depends on what stakes you play. For 10NL where I play I'd say 25-30% would be good becuase often there will be action before it gets to us when we have position.

4. Be less willing to steal from short stacks. Can steal with hands like suited connectors/suited gappers against larger stacks becuase of the greater implied odds.

5. Depends on the type of player in the cutoff. If its a loose player who limps a wide range then I feel like basically playing the same strategy will be fine. This will isolate and get us into pots in position vs this loose player. If the limper is a tight player, then I would be less willing to steal and maybe steal only with my best stealing hands.

6. Yes, against the right opponent. Not sure if the following thought is correct, but is there less expectation because we put in the SB ourselves and are only stealing the big blind instead of stealing both blinds from the button? Also, maybe the steal will get less respect?

7. and 8. Depends on their calling range. If they call with broadways then c-bet flops with small cards and check flops with high cards?

Daniel Negreanu has very good video on youtube.com just type "small ball poker" in the search engine. He talks about this very thing. Basically any ace and suited k's and suited gappers like Q-10s you want to raise from the cutoff or button in a unopened pot. Just 3x because its low enough to maybe get a call, gather information and fold to reraise with ease; but high enough to steal the blinds. Basically you want to give the image of a maniac, C-betting no matter what the flop is if its checked to you. Just a little more than half the pot. So when you do have a hand like AKs and its to you on the cutoff and they know youve been a maniac, you can raise 3x and they give you no credit for a hand so you can smash them big. You will always keep them geussing. This is a very rough explanation. i really suggest going to youtube.com and watching Daniel explain this strategy. I watched it applied it and it works just like on the video. Its a good little technique to add to your arsenal. GL

Originally Posted by RML604

1. What types of opponents should we be stealing from?

A lot of the time, all of them. When you steal you're relying on your opponent not having much of a hand, or at least one he is uncomfortable continuing with. Remember that our opponent is left facing a raise from us where he's out of position. This limits the hands he can play profitably. Obviously the tighter our opponents play, the more we can steal. Spoonitnow has a very good thread here which shows us some of the maths behind stealing.

Originally Posted by RML604

2. What type of hands should we be stealing with?

In my experience, good hands to steal with include Ax type hands (especially suited) for their showdown value preflop, suited kings, suited connectors 54s onwards (hands with "potential") because we'll be in position and able to play them profitably with our advantage here. Hands like broadways and pocket pairs I assume you already raise from this spot anyway.

Originally Posted by RML604

3. What is our target attempt to steal %?

As far as I know, a good target for a typical FR player should be 30%+. We can push this all the way up to 40% and still be profitable in my opinion, maybe even further. Don't jump straight into stealing three times more than you do already, however. Gradually get used to playing wider and wider and eventually you'll hit your target.

Originally Posted by RML604

4. How does stack size (ours and theirs) affect our decisions?

As stack size increases I'm stealing more with suited aces, suited connectors, hands with big implied odds value. The idea is that because stacks are so big we can chase big nut hands like flushes and try to win very large pots with them. As stacks get smaller we tighten up. Assuming our villains are adjusting and start re-raising or shoving against our steals, we need to change our strategy somewhat and we can start raising big offsuit aces more and other hands with showdown equity preflop. Here implied odds aren't worth much since our opponent is short stacked and we don't expect to win big pots, which means the value of hands like 76s goes down.

Originally Posted by RML604

5. If we're on the button and the cut off limps, how does this affect our strategy?

This is obviously depending on our opponent, but generally the change isn't very big. An open limp on the cutoff doesn't inspire a whole lot of strength so we can probably raise the exact same range. Don't forget we still have a huge advantage thanks to our position.

Originally Posted by RML604

6. Can stealing the BB from the SB be profitable? What's different about it than stealing from the button?

Stealing here can be very profitable, however we need to change our ideas somewhat. We've now lost our positional advantage and in my experience, villains call our steals more from the SB since they will now have position and maybe even give our raise less respect. For these reasons you shouldn't be raising as much from the SB as from BTN.

Originally Posted by RML604

7. When called, what types of flops should we be c-betting?
8. What flops should we be checking?

This is obviously situation-dependent. However flops that are generally good to cbet are paired flops, K-high flops, and monotone flops. Depending on how tight or wide your opponent is playing, you can add or remove more flops. For instance, it probably isn't worth cbetting a flop like 442 if you think your opponent's range is comprised mainly of pairs, nor is it worth betting missed flops if your opponent doesn't fold to cbets often.

Some further reading for you:
Blind Stealing 101
The 30/15/10 rule

Originally Posted by RML604

5. If we're on the button and the cut off limps, how does this affect our strategy?

Okay if you ever see someone open limp in the cut off, after you raise basically atc to isolate and take down the pot either right there or with a c-bet, make a note that the opponent does this. Since he/she is very passive preflop, we can really put the pressure on by isolating here. We are going to win alot of pots against opponents like this. (Their typical HUD stats are 20-25ish/4/low agg and a high%fold to c-bet) When they play back it's obvious they've got a hand. If they have a LOW fold to c-bet %, cut back on stealing and raise better cards for value against their range. Consider limping any 'potential' hands if stacks are deep. If they are a calling station you'll be able to price yourself into whatever draw you have and then get paid off when you hit.

I won't bother answering all the other questions as the answers produced are really, really good.

Originally Posted by RoyalProdigy

Just 3x because its low enough to maybe get a call, gather information and fold to reraise with ease; but high enough to steal the blinds.

I agree with the strategy of 3xing from late position; however, would just like to add another reason for doing it. As everyone in this thread knows, it's certainly profitable, and ideal, to open a wider range in later position. Well a wider range is going to invaribly mean a weaker range. Therefore, I conform to the idea that given our weaker range we should give ourself the opportunity to pot control on earlier streets.

Originally Posted by RoyalProdigy

Basically you want to give the image of a maniac, C-betting no matter what the flop is if its checked to you. Just a little more than half the pot.

I disagree with this. Making the generalization that you should cbet no matter what the flop, is going to lead to some trouble spots. If you are cbetting no matter what the flop is, then you are not accurately accounting for villain's range/tendencies, and your holding. For example:

We know that is villain rarely folds, we should (1) decrease the frequency with which we cbet. There is really no need betting when you whiff here if villain isn't going to fold. And we can (2) cbet for value more thinly. That is we can expect our weaker holdings to get called by worse more often, and therefore be getting more value.

Also, if villain is good, then he will be accounting for your range also. He will/should begin to check/raise more boards that likely missed your range, and likely crushed his. Calling from the SB/BB, and check/raising alot of flops is a great way to "defend" your blind.

I'm just trying to make the point that throwing out a blanket statement that says you should do something 100% of the time, is going to be less than ideal. Sure it might be better than an individual's current strategy, but that's not what we want. We want to find the best possible strategy and learn how to employ it. And the best is going to include us tailoring our play to the villain in question, his range, our range, board texture, etc and so on. Not doing so is just going to get you by. Doing so, and you will start to excel.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by RoyalProdigy

Just 3x because its low enough to maybe get a call, gather information and fold to reraise with ease; but high enough to steal the blinds.

I agree with the strategy of 3xing from late position; however, would just like to add another reason for doing it. As everyone in this thread knows, it's certainly profitable, and ideal, to open a wider range in later position. Well a wider range is going to invaribly mean a weaker range. Therefore, I conform to the idea that given our weaker range we should give ourself the opportunity to pot control on earlier streets.

Originally Posted by RoyalProdigy

Basically you want to give the image of a maniac, C-betting no matter what the flop is if its checked to you. Just a little more than half the pot.

I disagree with this. Making the generalization that you should cbet no matter what the flop, is going to lead to some trouble spots. If you are cbetting no matter what the flop is, then you are not accurately accounting for villain's range/tendencies, and your holding. For example:

We know that is villain rarely folds, we should (1) decrease the frequency with which we cbet. There is really no need betting when you whiff here if villain isn't going to fold. And we can (2) cbet for value more thinly. That is we can expect our weaker holdings to get called by worse more often, and therefore be getting more value.

Also, if villain is good, then he will be accounting for your range also. He will/should begin to check/raise more boards that likely missed your range, and likely crushed his. Calling from the SB/BB, and check/raising alot of flops is a great way to "defend" your blind.

I'm just trying to make the point that throwing out a blanket statement that says you should do something 100% of the time, is going to be less than ideal. Sure it might be better than an individual's current strategy, but that's not what we want. We want to find the best possible strategy and learn how to employ it. And the best is going to include us tailoring our play to the villain in question, his range, our range, board texture, etc and so on. Not doing so is just going to get you by. Doing so, and you will start to excel.

C-betting no matter what gives you the image of the maniac. I think thats why Daniel says to do it. Yes you may get checkraised off the pot a few times (when you have nothing). But that few times they check raise with nothing or medium pair just trying to make a move because they get sick of you your gonna get payed off when you actually do have something good. I'm not saying don't be aware of his range, not at all. Be very aware of his range but that does not mean dont C-bet because you want that image of a madman. just because you know someones range does not mean they won't lay the hand down that you think they have (unless its a sick hand). I personally like the image of a crazy guy because i know i can lay hands down with ease while the other person thinks i'm just some idiot.