Quik Question - Top pair 2nd best kicker

Ok I often play hands like KQo or KJo from mid/late pos if I can cheaply.

When I hit either the K, Q or J on a (raggy) flop I will usually up the aggro with a feeler bet to see who has the goods, usually about 1/2 - 3/4 pot sized bet.

If I can take the pot right there perfect, If I get re-raised, fine I was probably outgunned and am happy to not lose anymore to this average hand.

What I do have trouble with is when someone just flat calls my raise and then I am again first to act on the turn (assuming 4th street was another rag card)

If I check they bet large, If I fire again they call again.

I've showdowned a few of these hands out of interest and seen a range of hands played from:

- nothing (assuming they thought I was stealing the pot)
- same top pair with Ace kicker
- two weak pairs (guess this cant be helped cause of preflop play)

So my question is:
If you cant take the pot down on the flop, is it time to check-fold?

Theories/advice/stories please!

I usually make a 1/2 sized pot bet the first time. And then about the same on 4th street. If there is a draw out there then I'll bet 3/4 of the pot.

If I get raised and I read trips I get out of the pot. If the pot odds are too tempting then I'll stick around and make a 1/2 size bet on 4th street again. A raise here would really indicated strenth to me and I would fold. You may win the pot here if he was bluffing on the flop.

My best advice would be to generally only play these hands in position. Limping in may cost you little, but it's the betting after the flop that will really cost you. Remember, good poker is putting your opponent in difficult situations, not yourself. You really have to ask yourself what you were expecting out of this hand as well. If you hit your top pair but are still hesitant to play in 1st position, chances are you shouldn't even be in the pot.

There really isn't a substitute for knowing the guy your playing against so every situation is different, but that is how I generally play this situation.

Thanks for the reply Cawchy,

Originally Posted by Maverick

When I hit either the K, Q or J on a (raggy) flop I will usually up the aggro with a feeler bet to see who has the goods, usually about 1/2 - 3/4 pot sized bet.

If I can take the pot right there perfect, If I get re-raised, fine I was probably outgunned and am happy to not lose anymore to this average hand.

What I do have trouble with is when someone just flat calls my raise and then I am again first to act on the turn (assuming 4th street was another rag card)

Sorry I meant to add that this is played from mid/late position, flop raise has eliminated all but this persistent opponent, to act after me.

I understand that your saying play the cards for the right reasons. I have no problem betting into pots representing strength and eliminating draws.

My question is what to do when your opponent behind you flat calls your raise on the flop and then again on the turn (or flat calls on flop and checks behind on turn)

The other two scenarios I am fine with (opponent folds to raise/opponent re-raises) At least you know where you stand.

Perhaps you should be in check-fold mode with people flat-calling?

This is a very good question. I have lost all my chips in tourneys by being out of position and putting all my chips in by the river with these 1/2 pot to pot-sized "feeler" bets. It's usually when I'm HU with someone I think is trying to steal when I hold a decent hand PF.

hey Theeggman,
yea especially in tournies I can see how that would be potentially disasterous.

Cawchy was right when he said knowledge of your opponents style is invaluable in these situations. Problem is even if they are a calling station, ive too often seen them flip over tptk at showdown after flat calling my raises.

Anyone else know how to handle this situation? Surely check-fold isn't the way to go with someone flat calling you on flop/turn?

You're essential asking, "What's the optimal play with a medeocre hand in poor position." The optimal play is to not have a medeocre hand in poor position. If you're going to play it, raise it up and see if you can BUY position. If you get the people behind you to fold and the BB and limpers in front to call, then you have position for this hand. That's one option. The other is to fold.

When you have a smooth call behind you then you have to Guess. Do you have the best hand or not? If you don't then nothing you do will buy you the pot from AK with top pair. If you think you do, then play like you do. That's all you can do. But there's no way to Know if you're outkicked. I don't know if this help, and hell I could be wrong. But as a TAGGY, I know I love people who play KJ against my AK.

'If you think you do, then play like you do.'

This is exactly right - the ONLY way to effectively play a trash hand is to just play it like the hand it immitates - i.e. KQ is AK, if you hit top pair you're golden. For this reason it's a terrible hand to call a raise with, and it's a terrible hand to open with outside of LP. If someone limped in front, then you raise from the button and they call you, they probably don't have KQ dominated. If you get re raised it's time to let it go.

One method I just tried out was check raising. I check, and then the other guy bet half the pot like I would have, I then raised 1/2 the pot and he folded. It is a good way to get the drawers out of the hand in a semi bluff because their thinking that your bet tells them "I have the nuts." But again, some people think of check raises as a normal raise meaning nothing, so it's a tricky play.

You can still get some information out of them like this, but it is dangerous because they may just want to see a free card (position again).

I appreciate the responses everyone,

I noticed several people say these hands we're played out of position. I said mid/late pos for hands like KQo or KJo.

Just to clarify my understanding, these hands would be button or blind hands only with limpers and no significant raise?

Point taken on the 'act like you've got TPTK or get out of the hand.'
cheers

The reason most will tell you to call and then bet pot is because most people see a bet below the pot size to display weakness. Your best bet if you play this hand in mid positionis to raise to buy position as AOK said. if you arent willing to do this then you need to not play this type of hand from anywhere but CO or button.

If I saw a half pot bet from someone who has been betting bigger...I would run over you with a large raise with any reasonable hand.

Weakness...Learn to smell it

Originally Posted by Maverick

...When I hit either the K, Q or J on a (raggy) flop I will usually up the aggro with a feeler bet to see who has the goods, usually about 1/2 - 3/4 pot sized bet...

OK so

Cut out the 1/2 and 3/4 pot bets in favour of larger bets to buy position, show strength and eliminate draws.

Act like I've got TPTK or get out of the hand.

Play these hands from CO or button if I really want to play them.

Done. Cheers.

Thanks all, nice posts. I appreciate it.