Quick Advice on a pre flop situation AKs

Hi

So, i was playing $5nl 6max and had AKs. So i raise 4x and get 3bet by a weak/loose player. I think this will be an easy call but then before the action comes back to me, some other guy 4bets. At this stage i think there's a very real possibility of getting it all in or not at all pre flop/after the flop with AK 3 way.

I figure that AKs is not great all in 3 way and i fold. I'm proceeding there with AA or KK. I was fairly short stacked too, $3. So had i maybe had a bigger stack i might have seen a flop.

Now the flop came down with a couple of aces which sucks but the first idiot turns over pocket threes and the second guy turns over pocket queens. So technically, he was ahead at that point anyway (pokerstove).

Any advice?

I think more often than not at 5nl people are 3 betting AK & QQ+, 4 betting KK and AA only. Don't be results oriented, I'd say it's a completely reasonable fold.

Reads sir, the first guy you have a little bit of information on (weak/loose player), but you specified absolutely nothing about the 4bet player.

I agree with Monsieur_chat here with you being result orientated i don't even know if you would have posted this here had the board not brought you the winning hand.

In regards to the short stacking 2 questions.

1) Why where you short stacked?
2) Whats wrong with shoving AK preflop?

At this stage i think there's a very real possibility of getting it all in or not at all pre flop/after the flop with AK 3 way

If this is the case then why not get it all in preflop so you don't have to make those difficult laydowns on ugly flops, just my 2 cents. I probably have some flaws in my logic here but the main point i'm trying to get to you is be more active in applying a range to both villians. Monsieur_chat also mentioned that most villians will do this with AK, KK+. Possible but at NL5 iv seen some people do some crazy shit.

I assure you i'm not results oriented otherwise i wouldn't have been satisfied with my fold when i realised i was behind, i'd have been pissed.

Other guy i don't think i had a read on, possibly hardly any hands.

1) tough question, i had bought in for $4 or $5 but hadn't reloaded. I don't reload too much but then i rarely get too low. Perhaps this is another area to work on *shrug* but anyway
2) AK is a dog to most pairs, against one player it might be good but i felt that no one was going to fold, so it would be 3 way.

I will admit that i was feeling a bit nitty. Would anyone disagree though, that to get it all in at that stage would be coin-toss territory? I don't do coin tosses. I get my money in when i think i'm ahead.

Originally Posted by wonderland

I assure you i'm not results oriented otherwise i wouldn't have been satisfied with my fold when i realised i was behind, i'd have been pissed.

I think what i was trying to say is instead of being at level 0 lean more toward level 1, i.e thinking more about your opponents range.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Other guy i don't think i had a read on, possibly hardly any hands.

What i have been doing is making an excuse to put a note for a player, anything i can come up with one of the more simple notes i put is: "- Open limps (UTG/MP/CO/BTN)."'

Then i ask myself, what on earth is his (UTG/MP/CO/BTN) limping range? this is just a minor example but its amazing how much information you can actually get out of 10 hands.

Originally Posted by wonderland

1) tough question, i had bought in for $4 or $5 but hadn't reloaded. I don't reload too much but then i rarely get too low. Perhaps this is another area to work on *shrug* but anyway

I always try to make sure im at 100bb or more ldo, because i want to be able to exploit my entire opponents stack. Having 60 or 80bb to me feels like I am missing out on that extra 20 or 40bb that the villain could put in a pot vs me.

Originally Posted by wonderland

2) AK is a dog to most pairs, against one player it might be good but i felt that no one was going to fold, so it would be 3 way.

Against one player yes, we need 33.3% Equity to make this call +EV. This is where you need to think about ranges more, because as Monsieur_chat said its possible that his range could be AA after he 4bets as it might be to alot of other NL5 players but you need to be focusing on what his entire range is here, would he ever make this move with AQ?, maybe even 99? just as a very loose example.

Originally Posted by wonderland

I will admit that i was feeling a bit nitty. Would anyone disagree though, that to get it all in at that stage would be coin-toss territory? I don't do coin tosses. I get my money in when i think i'm ahead.

This play is more then likely going to be a high variance play. However it can be +EV, even what you think is a coin toss might be plus +EV if you are putting a certain ammount in to win a certain ammount, thats what we need to win about. Because every +EV play over a long time is going to = $$$.

I understand that you probably know alot of this content im just trying to bring better understanding by going back to the basics.

P.S. I'm only at NL10 6max :O so i have many flawed thinking aswell so i might make mistakes or have leaks in this post.

well, don't think of it being all-in preflop with QQ, 33, AK

first of all, if you 5b back the 33 probably folds so you're up against QQ and you're flipping
second of all, even if he had QQ, his range for a cold 4b is like QQ+
so pokerstove AKs vs QQ+

you also forgot what positions ya'll were
because if you were BU, SB 3b and BB 4b their ranges are way wider against a perceived steal and resteal

Originally Posted by wonderland

I figure that AKs is not great all in 3 way and i fold. I'm proceeding there with AA or KK. I was fairly short stacked too, $3. So had i maybe had a bigger stack i might have seen a flop.

Lots of things to comment on in the situation - I may or may not restrict myself to commenting on the quoted section.

The shorter you are, the more correct it is to go all-in preflop. By this I mean, with a 3bet and a 4bet people are looking to get all-in, so you don't really need to start thinking about seeing a flop and deciding what to do on the flop. What you need to do is decide whether you are going all-in and if you are,just do it pre-flop. This of couse assumes that they were making reasonable raise sizes and not min-raising both of them.

For the sake of argument I'll assume you were in early position, the weak/loose player was in late position and the other guy in the blinds. I'll assume these raise sizes: You to $0.20, weak/loose to $0.60, other guy to $2.00. With these kinds of raise size you are looking to either put $2.80 in to win $6.20 with two opponents or $3.80 with one opponent (if weak/loose folds - other guy never folding with the assumed bet sizes). So you need about 31% equity against two opponents or 42% against one opponent. It just so happens that you have that equity (better) against the actual hands, but that's pretty unimportant. What's important is if you have that kind of equity against all the hands they will have played in this exact way.

AKs is not the worst hand 3-way in a pre-flop all-in because you have a blocker to both the AA and the KK - the two hands you worry the most about - and it's suited. If you are up against underpairs any single A or K wins you the hand. If you are up against AQ/KQ or similar you dominate them. It's not fantastic if people ONLY go all-in pre-flop with AA and KK, but if there's any chance they go in with less it picks up a lot of equity.

All this said, you don't know enough about the opponents you play against to know that it's clearly +EV to play so I have no real problem with the 0EV play.

Next time you post a situation for consideration please follow the instructions in the sticky (this one: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ds-t76748.html )

Especially make sure that you list the complete stacks sizes for all people in the hand, all positions, the order of actions and size of bets. Additionally give as much information on your opponents as possible in whatever format you have them. Some software give statistics (stats) which can be listed, but more important is any playing tendencies you know they have.

ok, here goes. I guess i just wanted a simple answer but it seems that there's just no getting away from all the many factors involved in any one hand.

Here's the hand in all it's glory:

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG I am Serega ($3.30)
CO kardag40 ($1.92)
BTN n241247 ($5.13)
SB Hero ($3.08)
BB okela777 ($3.09)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 5 players) Hero is SB
I am Serega calls $0.05, kardag40 calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.20, okela777 raises to $0.35, I am Serega calls $0.30, kardag40 raises to $0.80, Hero folds, okela777 calls $0.45, I am Serega calls $0.45

Flop: ($2.60, 3 players)
okela777 checks, I am Serega checks, kardag40 goes all-in $1.12, okela777 calls $1.12, I am Serega folds

Turn: ($4.84, 2 players)

River: ($4.84, 2 players)


Final Pot: $4.84
okela777 shows:
kardag40 shows:

kardag40 wins $4.64 ( won +$2.72 )
okela777 lost -$1.92
I am Serega lost -$0.80
Hero lost -$0.20

There's been some awesome info here from some posters. So i want to thank you guys, i also realise as i read that i'm just not well learned enough on some subjects. Mainly:

- Equity. Always gets me, it really is finger puppets territory.
- Range. I find it hard to put people on ranges coz you only see a showdown with that player say once every 20 hands? And i usually find players leave after about 60 hands.

Thanks again!

Thanks for the hand history. To avoid getting results oriented replies consider cutting it off at the decision point you are asking about.

With the limpers in the hand you can easily make a case for having your initial raise be bigger. Also the fact the sequence of limp-calls and limp-raises suggests funky stuff going on. Of the hand ranges facing you when you decide to fold I'd say okela777 with the cold min-3bet is a bit of a mystery - the min-raise he makes is certain to accomplish pretty exactly nothing. He's just a bad player making a bad play. I am Serega seems like a preflop calling station who must see the flop. Doubtless his hand has potential and I wouldn't put most pocket pairs out of his range. He's probably unaware that he doesn't get odds to sethunt. kardag40 with the limp-4bet is the only one with a line that traditionally means something - and that something is strength. Still his bet size is weak - but some people bet big pairs very small because they want calls. Hindsight is 20/20 obviously but the results oriented perspective agrees that limp-raise (4bet in this case) can easily be premium pocket pairs.

Seeing as I wouldn't expect anyone to limp-reraise QQ too often and JJ maybe not at all you could certainly make an argument for considering folding in a similar situation. However, the quality of play and the fact that the only player with a strong hand range is short stacked suggests that continuing with AKs is +EV.

Shoving pre is tempting, but I think many of the speculative hands will fold out, so at this point I'd actually be tempted to just flat and see if the flop comes so you can stack off to okela777 and I am Serega. Even if kardag40 has a strong hand you might still win a sidepot from the other two.

The basic observation there is that the fact the pot is multiway complicates matters. But it also means there is more money behind to win if you do hit your hand. If all cards are unknown we have 27% chance of flopping a pair, which is good enough for us to stack off. Considering the amount to be won we're pretty much good to call if we assume other people will call. If we don't think anyone else will call we have to fold. In this case I would think both the other players call most of the time. I'd modify this a bit though - kardag40 will have some A and K in his range (notably AA and KK) so we can't assume all the A and K cards are available for us to hit, but if we assume calls pre there is still money to be won from flatting.