Questions About Big Slick On A Missed Flop

Hi All,

I will keep my questions here to the point.. however as always any input is appreciated. I had 89 hands on villain, he was 11/10 and 3B/F3B was 4/0.

1) Was my 3-bet here a good idea? Looking at it now, assuming he was as tight as my limited stats point to, his opening range from UTG+1 is probably pretty small, therefore I likely didn't have much fold equity here. Unfortunately that didn't cross my mind at the time.

2) I didn't see how I continue here.. as I'm really not beating anything.. but I couldn't help but wonder why he bet out at this flop. If he had a jack.. then he could have assumed I didn't.. and betting scares me away.. whereas I was the 3-better and likely to fire a bet.. ? Maybe he had an over pair and was testing the waters?

3) Had he not have bet this flop.. what would be my best move then?

Totally possible that I'm way off with my thinking here.. looking forward to your thoughts/opinions. Thanks.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
FullTiltPoker
7 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($6.87)
UTG+1 ($5)
hero (MP) ($10.28)
CO ($0.98)
BTN ($6.49)
SB ($2.76)
BB ($5)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 7 players) hero is MP
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.17, hero raises to $0.65, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.48

Flop: ($1.37, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1, hero ???

Good to see you posting a hand,

I think this is an easy fold. We'll see what others say though.

When you post a hand, and when you play a hand, you need to assess the villains range in more detail. By doing so forum members can better check your thinking. I don't mean to say you haven't thought about it because I see you suggest maybe over pair and why you think it's a strange line for a J. Its good to name the hands though. So you have a clearer idea of your villains actions.

Your guy raises from UTG+1 so and has fairly tight stats, not super nit though. His raising range is probably something like 99+ AQ+. You have seen him fold to 3bets so his calling range for your raise is JJ+ AK maybe. Also, while a flat is posssible we can assume this player would have 4bet AA/KK.

So our range is JJ, QQ, AK.

Betting on this flop is unlikely without a hand as your range is strong. Your most likely going to raise overpaira or perhaps flat call JJ and villain is going to be behind your range and out of position. So QQ JJ and perhaps AJ though we don't think he has that based on our flop read. .

It would be wrong of you to call with AK, and a raise to less than 3$ would also suck.so you've got to risk more than half a buy in that hell fold quads trips or overpair. A tighty with AK is t betting into the in position preflop 3bet. So you need a solid read on him being weaktight enough to fold an over pair. And confidence in him not betting a j ever.

Originally Posted by scott_owen

When you post a hand, and when you play a hand, you need to assess the villains range in more detail. By doing so forum members can better check your thinking. I don't mean to say you haven't thought about it because I see you suggest maybe over pair and why you think it's a strange line for a J. Its good to name the hands though. So you have a clearer idea of your villains actions.

Your guy raises from UTG+1 so and has fairly tight stats, not super nit though. His raising range is probably something like 99+ AQ+. You have seen him fold to 3bets so his calling range for your raise is JJ+ AK maybe. Also, while a flat is posssible we can assume this player would have 4bet AA/KK.

So our range is JJ, QQ, AK.

This was extremely helpful. So thank-you. I am trying to assess ranges, something which I wasn't doing well in the past, and seeing the process spelled out like this really helps. I think the process may have clicked together a bit more for me now.

Originally Posted by derekeverett

This was extremely helpful. So thank-you. I am trying to assess ranges, something which I wasn't doing well in the past, and seeing the process spelled out like this really helps. I think the process may have clicked together a bit more for me now.

no worries, I don't claim to be good at myself, its not easy to learn as there are so many variables. Things change dramatically with differences in player tendencies. This hand was an easy one because we see 2 actions preflop from a player who's style can be pigeon holed pretty easily.

i think the 3b pre is fine due to the fact that were in pretty ep and we dont really want ppl behind us coming in.
im prob just folding the flop without better reads

call

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

call

You can't possibly call this without a plan for the turn/river, so what is it? ..we dont learn without an explanation.

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

call

Haha. But I got AK mwaaaaaaaaa.... must.... not.... fold....

Yeah chase it down. He's got an underpair and we probably pick up more outs on the turn if we miss. I've got a gut feeling the river will be a 7 to fuck his 33.

/sarcasm




Villain definitely can bet a jack on this flop. Think about it. If he donks into this flop, we automatically assume "well he probably hasn't got a jack then", which means if he's got a jack it's a great way to disguise the real strength of his hand. He could be trying to trap the overpairs or induce spew from AK. He could also have literally any pair, I'll open pretty much any pair in any position, and I can easily run at 11/10 over 100ish hands.

He could be semi-bluffing diamonds, that's about the only part of his donking range we beat at the moment, but since we haven't paired, we're pretty much flipping against this part of his range anyway. But then how often does he have suited connectors when he opens utg?

He's got a pocket pair some 90% of the time here imo.

Fold.

re-evaluate turn

I don't mind the 3bet for ISO ip, but you gotta remember that AKo is just like ANY other drawing hand. Just 'cause it's got an A don't mean you got a hand that'll go to the river. For crissakes he's 11/10 and opened UTG. He's prolly doing that w/ like top 6% of hands.

The flop is DEF a fold. The only thing you're beating is air.

Originally Posted by Shotglass

AKo is just like ANY other drawing hand.

...?

Originally Posted by eugmac

...?

You can disagree with me or act confused by what I wrote all you want but when you stop and think about it you'll realize what I'm talking about. On this flop, his big slick is no better than 45s...Yeah, I've got two overcards, whooptyfuckindeal. Lemme chase down my 6 outs cause that AKo is just friggin golden...
So what happens after you hit one of your king?
fuck me, I just lost my stack because I'm a dumbass

/rant

Originally Posted by Shotglass

you gotta remember that AKo is just like ANY other drawing hand.

ISF - There's No Such Thing As a Made Hand
ISF - There's No Such Thing As a Made Hand: Part 2

edit: damn rpm was faster.
That's a good read.

Originally Posted by Shotglass

... but you gotta remember that AKo is just like ANY other drawing hand. Just 'cause it's got an A don't mean you got a hand that'll go to the river.

It's not helpful to think about a hand or range as 'made' or 'drawing'. It's better to think about it in terms of equity and playability against another range. - 'drawing' hands have a pretty linear amount of equity. A 'made' hand's equity is all over the place depending on what part of your opponents range you're looking at.
When you look at the hand and try to decide wether to 3b pre you have to disect the ranges a bit.
Let's say the pfr opens 7% or 106 combos, so 66+=53 AK,AQ,AJ = 48 ATs,KQs=8 - close enough. If you just call you get the fish along with all broadways and a bunch of other stuff. If you 3b you'll probably get called by 66+AK - not because it's reasonable but because it's microstakes, and you'll get him to play pretty fit or fold. etcetc. this is how you should think about the hand. Write out ranges. Do ridiculously simplified EV calculations just to get a feeling for it. It's not so much about getting a result but about learning how to think about a game with limited information.

In isolation I much prefer a 3b against the nit because you force more mistakes by 3-betting most of the time. How the fishes ranges change after a 3b or a call is what will swing the decision to 3b pre.
You can spend a lot of time analyzing that spot but it's not a great place to start learning about poker cos preflop is simply the hardest street to play correctly... by far.

I don't care much about preflop - you can do whatever imo, but I would definitely 3b to 3x or even smaller.
On the flop I like the way you think. This is almost always and underpair to the JJx and rarely anything else. How you continue in the hand depends largely on what you think of him. You can credibly represent JJ+ by calling and raising a small bet on the turn or betting big when checked to if you think he's capable of folding.
I'm a huge advocate of making potentially -EV plays at micro limits just to see what they will do, so I like call and then do whatever. You'll prolly get stacked by 88, but then at least you have learned something and it wasn't too expensive.

3bet pre is not bad, we can fold others that act after us and get HU postflop and if we can make him , UTG, fold PP up to TT and AK as well, then the 3bet is ok. cause when i 3bet i do it for value ( him calling worse then mine) and to try and make him fold better then mine ( AK is underdog to PP and equal to AK so if he folds these then is ok).

when we have him calling us, his range is prob TT-QQ (tightest) and TT-QQ,AK more seen. when he bets the flop, asuming he bets all his range TT-QQ,AK it's still a fold, cause best case we tie, but more times we lose. so there is no point in calling.

if and only if he can find the fold button, we can shove, but i doubt a 5nl player can fold TT,QQ, AKdd here ( 13 combos) , prob folds rest of AK ( just 4 combos remain if we take out our AK and AKdd) so a flop raise to bluff is also bad cause 5nl players cant fold TT,QQ,AKdd here and because of these combos count 13-4, floating and trying to get the pot on turn is also bad.

in conclusion, i will always fold this here at 5nl.

I have no idea why we're so obsessed with getting this flop HU when our c-bets aren't going to have too much FE vs this guy and particularly when there are weak ass fish we can allow to come along with loads of dominated hands they'll stack off with whenever they make a dominated pair.

Originally Posted by Carroters

I have no idea why we're so obsessed with getting this flop HU when our c-bets aren't going to have too much FE vs this guy and particularly when there are weak ass fish we can allow to come along with loads of dominated hands they'll stack off with whenever they make a dominated pair.

Best advice I've heard all day.

Oh yah, and pls don't call it Big Slick. Wholecard nicknames give me the creeps.

Originally Posted by oskar

Oh yah, and pls don't call it Big Slick. Wholecard nicknames give me the creeps.

*Holecard

Originally Posted by eugmac

*Holecard

I guess I accidentally the whole card.
I see have derailed this thread sucessfully, so my job here is done.
Great link, eugmac.

Doesn't everybody call QQ ladies?

gay cowboys imo...

Originally Posted by oskar

Oh yah, and pls don't call it Big Slick. Wholecard nicknames give me the creeps.

I was watching Poker After Dark and the commentator called KK "cowboys". I thought that was really clever. I mean, I don't understand why they're called cowboys but there must be a good reason. So I'm gonna rope some doggies like a cowboy with my KK.

Edit: Mod, please move to the drunk thread in the commune, kthx.

Doesn't everybody call QQ ladies?

1) Call pre to keep ranges wider vs both this guy and the others still to act.

2) His leading range is mostly QQ/TT/99/88 and sometimes even smaller pairs, very rarely Jx (since he doesn't have many in his range preflop and he'll check often with these). Fold to his lead.

3) Cbet only folds out worse hands (AQ/KQ) and all pairs are usually calling. Check it back and take 6 free outs.

Before this thread takes a turn for the worse:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...mes-93198.html

Originally Posted by eugmac

Before this thread takes a turn for the worse:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...mes-93198.html

Thank You!

I'll have my nose in that list for a while lol.

Snowmen ftw

I thought "big slick" applied only to suited AK.. nicknames also annoy me, "pocket rockets" is the worst.

I think "American Airlines" is possibly even worse.

add me to the "hole card names tilt me" camp.