Question for the floor...

Hand just played in a .25/.50 NL table. It's a 6 max table and only three people are in the hand. The flop is two low cards and an ace - I believe it was actually A 6 8 rainbow. I have an inside straight draw, otherwise nothing; it checks around. The turn is a ten, which is the second high card. It also pairs a ten in my hand, for second pair, but obviously doesn't help my straight. At this point the pot is $1.9, and a guy who checked the flop now bets pot-sized. I decide to call with my pair of tens and inside straight draw. River card is a 7, completing my straight. He bets a dollar, I raise to $4 and he folds.

Snippy remark after: he calls me a fish and complains about my bad play. Then he says "I had two pair XXXXhead".

I was very vindictive in my comments after that, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the play itself. Is it overly fishy to call with second pair and a 4-out draw on the turn? Pot-sized bet, no other callers, and no action before or on the flop. I figured him for a pair of 10s like me, and while my kicker wasn't strong (a nine) I also hedged my bets with the straight outs. I figured it was worth the call, and this time it was. What do you think?

Yah it's pretty fishy, sounds to me like you had no bluffing opportunity and no implied odds.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Hand just played in a .25/.50 NL table. It's a 6 max table and only three people are in the hand. The flop is two low cards and an ace - I believe it was actually A 6 8 rainbow. I have an inside straight draw, otherwise nothing; it checks around. The turn is a ten, which is the second high card. It also pairs a ten in my hand, for second pair, but obviously doesn't help my straight. At this point the pot is $1.9, and a guy who checked the flop now bets pot-sized. I decide to call with my pair of tens and inside straight draw. River card is a 7, completing my straight. He bets a dollar, I raise to $4 and he folds.

Snippy remark after: he calls me a fish and complains about my bad play. Then he says "I had two pair XXXXhead".

I was very vindictive in my comments after that, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the play itself. Is it overly fishy to call with second pair and a 4-out draw on the turn? Pot-sized bet, no other callers, and no action before or on the flop. I figured him for a pair of 10s like me, and while my kicker wasn't strong (a nine) I also hedged my bets with the straight outs. I figured it was worth the call, and this time it was. What do you think?

I don't think I like it. The only way I think you can really justify the play is if you think he caught a pair of 8's or 6's on the flop and thought they might be good if nobody caught the A. In that case, you're betting your T's and drawing to 9 outs (4 for the straight, 3 for 2 pair, 2 for trips). This is all assuming that he's not slow-playing 2-pair or a set, though I don't know whether pocket pairs are generally limped in 6-max. He could, I think, also have had Ace-weak kicker, in which case you're just drawing and definitely not getting odds to do so. All in all, I think it was probably a folding situation, but I'm glad it worked out for you this time!

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Yah it's pretty fishy, sounds to me like you had no bluffing opportunity and no implied odds.

-'rilla

Maybe, although from my angle I felt like it was a pretty brazen bet considering the lack of pre-flop and post-flop action, and therefore a probable bluff. Basically I thought my pair of tens had a good shot to hold up even if the draw missed. I don't know - I suppose all such things are esoteric when you don't know the players involved, but that was how it came off to me.

Footnote: the very next hand, I was dealt JQo and gave it a small pre-flop raise (matched the big blind). He called as did a few others. Flop came jack queen blank, I bet more than pot-sized and he went all in on me. We split the pot with the exact same hand, which was funny to me, but he started in with the whining again, saying I shouldn't pre-flop raise with jack queen. Maybe it's just me, but jack queen is a strong enough hand at a 6 max table to be worth a small raise just to get a couple people out before the flop. I almost never want to play in an unraised pot, unless I have a small pocket pair.

Thanks for your comments guys. I think now I probably should have folded it, but I dunno - sometimes at those tables and limits I feel bulletproof, and it takes a couple consecutive big losses for me to start playing more cautiously. I don't typically call with less than top pair unless I'm getting great pot odds or have a good draw to go with it, but maybe this draw wasn't good enough in the situation.

Maybe, although from my angle I felt like it was a pretty brazen bet considering the lack of pre-flop and post-flop action, and therefore a probable bluff.

And it's that thinking that allows me to really tear fish a new one. Don't call looking for bluffs, call looking for slightly worse hands. You should basically ignore any "feeling" that tells you bluff unless you've got a real accurate read.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

And it's that thinking that allows me to really tear fish a new one. Don't call looking for bluffs, call looking for slightly worse hands. You should basically ignore any read that tells you bluff unless you've got a real accurate read.

-'rilla

Thank you, that's clear and makes perfect sense. I think the thing that makes it hard to stick to that approach is that it seems like a lot more bluffing goes on at 6 max tables than anywhere else, and at some tables you can hardly make a buck unless you either have the nuts, or are willing to stare down some bluffs with hands that are just decent and not great. Also, I have to admit, I rake a *lot* of pots at those tables from bluffing, taking stabs at pots that have gone unraised for too long... so it makes me suspicious that everyone else might be playing the same way. In any case though, my profitability outside of 6 max NL is not so hot, which I think might very well be because of this "philosophy" of mine. I usually just break even at limit games, full table no limit, or anything else, so it's very likely that I need to start playing more your way.

A lot of fish consider advanced strategy is not betting top pair on the flop, it works against other fish, but if he bets pot size on the turn you gotta give him credit for the A unless he's a maniac. It wasn't a horrible play, just one that if your not careful could become a leak.

Fine play. Playing short handed you had big implied odds on the str8 draw and I always bet second or bottom pair. Bet, bet bet bet bet and so on. Absolutely not a fishy play.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

the very next hand, I was dealt JQo and gave it a small pre-flop raise (matched the big blind). He called as did a few others. Flop came jack queen blank, I bet more than pot-sized and he went all in on me. We split the pot with the exact same hand, which was funny to me, but he started in with the whining again, saying I shouldn't pre-flop raise with jack queen.

I love players like this, "Yea, I did the same thing you did. But you did it wrong, and I did it right!"

Actually, he was worse, because he CALLED a raise with JQos!

Position on a "fish" with any sort of hand can be justified. If he had drawn a read and figured him for a fish, it's pretty loose but not that bad.

-'rilla

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...ives/?a_id=296

This guy is what you call a "nit." I never give any cred to what other players say, ever, unless the person is a friend or an FTR poster. Even then, I'm critically evaluating the advice, ie even if Howard Lederer himself said it to me.

What business does another player have critiquing your play? He's obviously not your friend, and he's ultimately giving you advice that will make the game easier for him to play in the future (i.e. he wants you to play weak/passive).

P.S. The only time it was a bad play was if you made it for a wrong reason. Poker is a game of odds that extend beyond the chance of showing down the best hand. The play might be right because a) you knew you had implied odds. b) You had a read on the guy.

If it was obvious he was in the lead, you knew it, he knew it, and you both knew he would fold, (or perhaps you made the play without even thinking about anything at all) then you made a bad play.

So you tell me whether you made a good play or not; we weren't in the game, and we aren't inside your head.