A question of ettiquite...

Hey everyone,

It's been a long while since I've posted, much less visited these boards. But with classes winding down, I've found a little more time on my hands.

I have a question for those who play in a lot of tournaments (be they casino tourneys, online SNG's, home games, etc..)

My friends and I have a weekly NLHE freezeout that consists of a broad mix of skill levels. We have one player who (when he manages to make it to heads-up by catching an insane number of two or six outers) will consistently fold hands pre-flop (on the button even) until he picks up what he deems to be a solid hand and push all-in. It's frustrating because, even though the better players can raise and steal his blinds constantly and ridiculously out play him post-flop, it becomes more or less of a lottery and a chore to play with this person because of that style. It reminds us of someone who doesn't play to win, but instead plays not to lose.

When he does win, the better players get a little frustrated and point it out, but it doesn't seem to faze this guy. It's almost like he feels he really played like a champ to win.

How do you feel about this kind of heads-up play? And how would you address it, if at all? I feel it takes a lot of the skill, and more importantly, the fun, out of the game.

Let's suppose you had to play Phil Ivey HU.

What would be your best strategy?

What if your Mother won a contest where she would play Phil Ivey tomorrow, and if she won, would win $1M?
How would you coach her to play?

what would give her the best chance of winning, without getting outplayed?

To get upset because this friend of yours has developed a strategy that you can not take advantage of seems silly, doesn't it?
Because he doesn't allow you to outplay him post flop?

Don't get upset... try to determine the best way to take advantage of this opponent.

Good Luck.

this guy sounds like free HU money if you can figure out what his range is. If he only does this (will not bluff randomly with the All in) raise every time you're on the button and keep stealing his blinds. You will make much more on these steals then you'll lose to his pushes over your raises. If he's pushing alot, find his range and if you figure you have a better hand look him up.

This type of player really shouldn't fluster you. There are tons of these guys at every home game across the nation. A lot of these guys are stubborn for the reason you stated: success. When they win, they think it is because they played great. And because they lack the skill to win otherwise, they assume that play style is what allows them to win... so they stick with it.

If you're really out to get rid of him (or at least get him off his current playstyle), the best solution is very simple - kill him. These guys are easy to read because, as CFANG noted, they only play a very limited range of hands and don't bluff. He may still manage to win that occasional AI but as long as you consistently make +EV moves then he's going to start losing again and again. If everyone at the table hates him, then don't fight each other to take him out either.

Eventually, he'll realize that his play style is extremely limited and very easy to defeat. He'll either give up, or get less stubborn and improve his play skill. Until then - take adavantage of having a lottery gambler at your table. The only reason I don't like these guys is that probability dictates they'll wind up giving their chips to someone else.

Originally Posted by galwaylad7

...It's frustrating because, even though the better players can ....

It does amuse me how you say "the better players", even though he seems to fairly consistently make it to heads up? (If he didn't do it very often, why would you mind...). Maybe you could all beat him before it gets to the final two if you are all bettter players

Seriously though - he isn't cheating - and it's not bad etiquette - it's how he plays and you should respect this and not complain. The fact that he has developed a style that annoys his opponents is even more impressive. By the way - does he show his cards? How do you _know_ he is only going all in with solid hands? Because you all "know" he only goes all in with solid hands, perhaps he just takes advantage of this and randomly goes all in every few hands with rubbish knowing that his opponent will go "oh no he has AA again I have to fold". All i'm saying is, it's up to YOU to adjust to his style. It is not up to him to change his style to allow you a better chance of winning - and the only bad player is the one who cannot adjust to his style of play

If he indeed plays like this - only push or fold preflop it should be pretty simple to beat him.
A good question was asked - how did he get to the final two of your tournamnets.

Even if he did - if he only pushes good hands (less then 1/4s of the hands) all you have to do is minraise him everytime and fold to every push.
If he pushes more often all you have to do is wait for a decent hand and call him.
Sure you will not win everytime, but this is the nature of poker, it is a long term game, and you should win more then you lose against him.

I love playing against people like this. I just make small raises preflop with any 2 cards and they fold more than they push. one thing you have to remember to do is fold every so often when you are first to act so he doesnt realise you are raising any 2 and just figures you for a good run of cards.
If you dont fold every so often you are really overfishing and you will probably teach your longterm ATM to start pushing over the top of you with more hands and making your descisions difficult.

He's tight aggressive. You beat him by grinding him down and avoiding his good hands.

Any time an opponent sticks to the same gameplan, it becomes very easy to beat them. You just play to the weakness of the style. I play with someone similar to the person you describe. He calls himself "the best damn player here". In reality, he's just a camper. He plays good cards and lets you know his strength through a variety of tells. He never pushes without the goods. He has almost NO chance against me heads up because I steal steal steal avoid, steal steal steal avoid. He allows this pattern to commence every time.

This opponents weakness is that he's giving you too much information about his card strength. Every time the freight train comes riding, just step to the side of the tracks. Commence draining him after he mucks his good hand. You beat this opponent slowly but surely.

Wow, a lot of solid replies already.

I should have prefaced the original post by saying that I'm not frustrated by the player so much as what the underlying admission is behind the strategy. It really just seems like playing not to lose, instead of playing to win.

Let's suppose you had to play Phil Ivey HU.

What would be your best strategy?

The best strategy is exactly what he's doing.

If everyone at the table hates him, then don't fight each other to take him out either.

That's another part of the problem. When we're at a shorthanded table, I try to raise his blinds or re-raise when he enters a pot in order to isolate him. Unfortunately, a lot of other players wind up splashing around as well more often than I'd like.

Maybe you could all beat him before it gets to the final two if you are all bettter players

HAHAHA, see above. And it's not very often that he'll make it to heads up play, but when he does, it's because he's improbably sucked out on many different players with nothing more than six outers or so.

The only reason I don't like these guys is that probability dictates they'll wind up giving their chips to someone else.

SO VERY TRUE.

By the way - does he show his cards? How do you _know_ he is only going all in with solid hands?

Actually, yes. In fact, most recently when I would show the occassional bluff all in raise after he completed the BB from the button and then folded once I pushed, he would begin to show the hands he pushed pre-flop with, or the "big" laydowns he'd make on a flop that didn't connect with him.

Sure you will not win everytime, but this is the nature of poker, it is a long term game, and you should win more then you lose against him.

Which is the case (not to toot my own horn). But it's also the idea of him being a little humble and recognizing the hand of God came into play when hitting all the two and six outers to make it there. But like gengar said, they're everywhere and you can beat them over the head with odds and expected value and it doesn't make a lick of difference.

Rondavu, you hit the nail on the head, though. Playing good cards and easily giving away the strength of the hand with an abundance of physical tells is his MO. The last time he and I were heads up, I did a lot of what everyone hgre has said: Raise with pretty much any two cards, keep the raise amounts consistent (usually 2.5 - 3xBB), occassionally fold my small blind to him when I was to act first, and throw in a flat call or two. It really just became such a chore after a while, but I guess that's part of the grind.

I have another question along some of the same lines though. A couple of weeks ago a player lost an all-in bet that left him with about 1.5BB. It was heads up and he was to post the BB, so he went all-in dark. His opponent looked at the cards he was dealt and said that it wasn't even worth it and folded his small blind. Now with over 98% of the chips on the table, should it have been an automatic call for the player who folded? I thought that mathematically it would be, and to a certain extent, out of courtesy as well. A lot of people disagreed with me.

Thanks again for all the great responses, everyone. This is why FTR rules and I'm really hoping to get involved again.

With 98% of the chips....I would have called, thats just me though. Anything can happen on the flop. and to risk 1.5BB, I dont think is a big deal. But again, thats just me. Some might be a bit more cautious and wait for that finishing hand.....but it was only 1.5BB.

I dont think it really matters if he folds or not, the other guy needs to be extermly lucky to get back.

I would call blind at a friendly game. Used to do it all the time when we held home tourneys. If you're playing with people you like, then courtesy would be to call his all in blind. Plus it's fun.