question about this play

question about this play....i made an unusual call that paid off, i figured that if people were calling raises they would likely have any two face cards and pay me off if i hit, and boy did i hit the flop hard, just wondering if even though this worked , if it a good strategy in the long run; that is calling with baby cards to trap other oponents


Stage #134756397: Holdem No Limit $0.05 [ 2005-06-04 00:02:51 ]
Seat 1 - KIDDCOBRA $12.43 in chips
Seat 5 - ROCO415 $4.82 in chips
Seat 6 - CANADIANGOOS $3.90 in chips
Seat 7 - LANTA $30.36 in chips
Seat 9 - KAMAKAZEE $5.50 in chips
*** BLIND [dealer 1] ***
ROCO415 - Post small blind $0.05
CANADIANGOOS - Post big blind $0.10
ROCO415 - Pocket [9c,6c]
LANTA - Raises $0.10 to $0.50
KAMAKAZEE - Calls $0.50
KIDDCOBRA - Folds
ROCO415 - Calls $0.45
CANADIANGOOS - Calls $0.40
*** FLOP [6d,7s,6s] ***
ROCO415 - Checks
CANADIANGOOS - Checks
LANTA - Checks
KAMAKAZEE - Checks
*** TURN [6d,7s,6s,Kh] ***
ROCO415 - Bets $0.70
CANADIANGOOS - Calls $0.70
LANTA - Folds
KAMAKAZEE - Calls $0.70
*** RIVER [6d,7s,6s,Kh,2d] ***
ROCO415 - All-In $3.62
CANADIANGOOS - All-In $2.70
KAMAKAZEE - Folds
ROCO415 - returned ($0.92) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ROCO415 - Show cards [9c,6c]
CANADIANGOOS - Lost mucks
*** RESULT ***
Total Pot($9.50) Rake ($0.45)
Board [6d,7s,6s,Kh,2d]
KIDDCOBRA - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
ROCO415 - Total ($9.05) All-In HI$9.05)Three of a kind, sixes [9c,6c - B:6s,B:6d,P:6c,B:Kh,P:9c]
CANADIANGOOS - HI: [Lost mucks]
LANTA - Folded on the TURN
KAMAKAZEE - Folded on the RIVER

Fold.

No sense playing a shitty hand for a 5xBB raise in terrible position.

96s is a decent hand when going 4 handed, but I really dislike it when out of position and facing a 5xBB raise.

If you are going to drop the hammer against these gamb00rs, wait till you are in position and make sure you get in with the first preflop raise. Then rep the flop if it doesn't hit you.

oh okay i understand, i forgot i was even in the small blind on this hand. you are completely right about the position but your saying that it is a good play when in position and when the raise is much lower? that makes a lot of sense, thank you for your response

weak play. id probably fold even if there was no raise. you have to act first, whcih means that even if you hit you cant extract the most value since you have to bet first. and if you check, like you did, you cant expect the preflop aggressor to make a continuation bet. you put too much in preflop, none in on the flop. and lucked out with a retard caller before showdown. check-all in is a pretty obvious play in the SB postflop. you lucked out, pure and simple.

dont do that again.

Its good play when your in the cutoff or on the button. Its an even better play when there is no preflop raise at all, when you play a hand like this and win however, you need to take advantage of the fact that your opponents are now not going to be sure exactly what your holding when you coldcall thier raise, or what you have that you think is worth raising, time to steal some pots


Nomad

If the person you're in hand with has position on you, and is very aggressive, then sometimes it makes sense to spike them with a rag hand. I don't know if I would do it with 96suited for 5xBB, but I might do it with 89suited for 3xBB. Your "poor" position is actually an advantage if the person with position on you is over aggressive. That's because you can slow play them. I called a 3xBB with 67 suited last night and took 40xBB from a guy when 6 6 9 flopped.

If a 5xBB raise comes from a person with a huge stack and I hold a small pocket pair, I will also call for the implied odds. I might even raise all in if the person is known to lay down.

Playing rags is specific to the opponent. When you play rags for raises, you better be able to tell yourself why you're doing it. It can't be because you hope to "hit a lucky flop". It has to have a purpose. That purpose could be to mold your image, or to steal from a person who only raises broadways and you're hoping a rag flop hits.

You should learn the different reasons to play with rags before you start messing around with them. It's also safe to say your reads have to be superior when you play with fire.

calling a raise with 96s is great, as long as your CO or have the button, then letting go when the flop misses you.

if your going to play junk to a raise, best to be calling in late position so you can gain a little more information about what they are holding.

Analysis has shows that with more than 5 hands in, middle suited connectors do better than strong suited connectors.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Playing rags is specific to the opponent. When you play rags for raises, you better be able to tell yourself why you're doing it. It can't be because you hope to "hit a lucky flop". It has to have a purpose. That purpose could be to mold your image, or to steal from a person who only raises broadways and you're hoping a rag flop hits.

You should learn the different reasons to play with rags before you start messing around with them. It's also safe to say your reads have to be superior when you play with fire.

wow this helps me out a lot because my main purpose when playing rags is to hit a lucky flop...ill start thinking bout the purpose more

also, dimitri do you know of the specific statistics? curious

Carlos Mortenson is a perfect example of a guy who plays rags for raises with a purpose. He does it to maintain his image. You can never put him on anything. It's a mess, but it works when done right. The variance is very high. but it can have the effect of loosening your opponent up enough to bust them when you catch a high pocket pair.

I have to admit I play rags for raises often against the right opponent. Two hands in peticular happened back to back and illustrated the downfalls and benefits of doing so...

Hand 1: I was a high stack and was dealt 6c 5c. Guy raises 3xBB and I'm in the pot with 2 other callers. The flop comes 6 6 T. Another guy in hand had A 6 and doubled up through me.

Very next hand: I was dealt 6s 7s. Guy raises to 5xBB. I am the lone caller and the flop comes out 6d Jh 6c. Of course he has a high pocket, and I almost double through while busting him.

The reason it's sometimes correct to call big raises with rags is because of implied odds. Big raises signify high pocket pair. What that means is you will get a lot of action when you hit your hand. In other words, your implied odds are almost guaranteed to be fantastic. You're going to double through more often than not when you hit a monster with your rags against a high pocket. You just have to know when it's time to fold. You have to understand that you need more than one pair to stay in.

Times NOT to do this:

-When blinds are sky high in a tourney
-When you're short stacked in a tourney
-In a cash game when you can't afford it
-When your opponent has a low stack (no implied odds)

Check out the CMU simulation:

"A few years later several people discovered that some of the smaller suited connectors (such as 87s and 76s) sometimes played better than their larger cousins (such as T9s). This reversal of the 10-player showdown results was both surprising, and held as a professional holdem players' trade secret by many. This U-Shaped effect is clearly visible in the HE Table 1"

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/mummert/poker/

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Carlos Mortenson is a perfect example of a guy who plays rags for raises with a purpose. He does it to maintain his image. You can never put him on anything. It's a mess, but it works when done right. The variance is very high. but it can have the effect of loosening your opponent up enough to bust them when you catch a high pocket pair.

I have to admit I play rags for raises often against the right opponent. Two hands in peticular happened back to back and illustrated the downfalls and benefits of doing so...

Hand 1: I was a high stack and was dealt 6c 5c. Guy raises 3xBB and I'm in the pot with 2 other callers. The flop comes 6 6 T. Another guy in hand had A 6 and doubled up through me.

Very next hand: I was dealt 6s 7s. Guy raises to 5xBB. I am the lone caller and the flop comes out 6d Jh 6c. Of course he has a high pocket, and I almost double through while busting him.

The reason it's sometimes correct to call big raises with rags is because of implied odds. Big raises signify high pocket pair. What that means is you will get a lot of action when you hit your hand. In other words, your implied odds are almost guaranteed to be fantastic. You're going to double through more often than not when you hit a monster with your rags against a high pocket. You just have to know when it's time to fold. You have to understand that you need more than one pair to stay in.

Times NOT to do this:

-When blinds are sky high in a tourney
-When you're short stacked in a tourney
-In a cash game when you can't afford it
-When your opponent has a low stack (no implied odds)

great post .. this is where i make the majority of my money in NL cash games..

implied odds go through the roof.

i play standard poker with AA and AK to build up a padding buffer so i can make calls on big raises in late position with suited one gappers and two gappers and small pocket pairs... at this point im just playing around to build up a stack so i can play around and speculate, then when i hit, i usually double up... then it becomes hunting season .. i seek out someone who has around my size of chip stack or more and wait for the perfect opprotunity to bust him.

I'm not ready for it yet (sounds like advanced strat, deeper bankroll/BB too) - but I'm curious about this one.

So if your 68s doesn't hit two pair or trips on the flop against AA/KK - the AA/KK will surely bet. Since you are in position against him, do you just fold (meaning it only costs you ~5-10x BB preflop to test the waters on suited rags here)?
What if you hit an open-ended straight or flush draw instead of nothing (but still no trips/2 pair)?
Do you match another 10-20x BB bet to draw against the AA/KK? My inclination would be not to do so, just fold unless they bet really small - that's why I'm querying.

Originally Posted by DaHorror

I'm not ready for it yet (sounds like advanced strat, deeper bankroll/BB too) - but I'm curious about this one.

So if your 68s doesn't hit two pair or trips on the flop against AA/KK - the AA/KK will surely bet. Since you are in position against him, do you just fold (meaning it only costs you ~5-10x BB preflop to test the waters on suited rags here)?
What if you hit an open-ended straight or flush draw instead of nothing (but still no trips/2 pair)?
Do you match another 10-20x BB bet to draw against the AA/KK? My inclination would be not to do so, just fold unless they bet really small - that's why I'm querying.

yes i will call a pot sized bet in this sutation to hit my straight .. if i hit my straight on the turn, the boards not paired and an ace falls on the river, i can guarantee you i will have his stack 99.9999999% of the time

Thanks for the reply.

So you're playing implied odds there? A pot-sized bet = fold according to plain pot odds n'est pas (not factoring in reads)? Though I suppose you could have a few more outs than just the straight draw.

I'm curious, how many times out of 100 (meaning % I guess) does the straight flop? The straight draw? Two Pair? Trips? These are generally academic - I could look up the % chance but I'm more interested in your personal experience than raw % here.

And what I really want to know is - do your winnings when you hit at the flop/turn outcash your costs (folding at flop when you have nothing, not even straight draw, or at the turn with straight draw missing, hek even at the river if you see it that far - matches 2 pot sized bets) ?

It seems like you are probably profitable overall with this strategy...plus it gives you nice 'unpredictability cred' at the table.
I like the sound of it - not ready to employ it yet but once I get decent I'll keep it in mind.
Thanks!