Question about minraising...

Should you fold to them? Take this hand for example. Clearly my K is beat, but the pot is laying me like 4.4:1 odds. Is it worth the call to see if a heart or J come?

FullTiltPoker Game #189026553: Table Triest (6 max) - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:07:33 ET - 2005/08/18
Seat 1: HeadWoundHarry ($1,026.10)
Seat 2: Carolina Pirate ($65.40)
Seat 3: andr3w321 ($284)
Seat 4: SpydaMan77 ($160)
Seat 5: detan8 ($177.20)
Seat 6: kingbets ($394)
Carolina Pirate posts the small blind of $2
andr3w321 posts the big blind of $4
SpydaMan77 posts $4
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to andr3w321 [:Kh: :Jh:]
SpydaMan77 checks
detan8 folds
kingbets raises to $9
HeadWoundHarry calls $9
Carolina Pirate calls $7
andr3w321 calls $5
SpydaMan77 calls $5
*** FLOP *** [ :Kd:]
Carolina Pirate checks
andr3w321 bets $32
SpydaMan77 folds
kingbets raises to $64
HeadWoundHarry folds
Carolina Pirate folds
andr3w321 calls $32
*** TURN *** [6h 3d Kd] []
andr3w321 checks
kingbets bets $65
andr3w321 folds
Uncalled bet of $65 returned to kingbets
kingbets mucks
kingbets wins the pot ($170)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $173 | Rake $3
Board: [6h 3d Kd 5c]
Seat 1: HeadWoundHarry (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Carolina Pirate (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: andr3w321 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 4: SpydaMan77 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: detan8 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: kingbets collected ($170), mucked

i dont think so.. forget about the running flush really and you only have 3 or 5 outs (jacks and kings ifs the ks are good).

with 6 outs at flop (two overcards to pair up on next card) your 7-1 and even these odds arent good enough compared to what the pot is laying you with this min raise.

with 5 outs your 8-1... you may be about to count your runner flush as 1 more out (i think harrington reccommended this in HoH1).

ps i wouldnt even call the PFR with KJ (quite a trap hand)

I fold that PF. You are dominated by many hands that would raise or call a raise.

The PFR coupled with the flop raise seems to indicate a strong K. Not sure I would play beyond that without a read.

If you're going to call that raise Preflop with KJ suited (they're still suited connectors, right people?), you are looking for the flush...maybe the J. If you hit the king, you need to bet it, just like you did here, and when you get minimum raised, you need to lay it down; you are, at the very least, outkicked.

But I'm also comfortable folding preflop

preflop dump for me.
No need to get involved where your only real chance is probably the flush draw or maybe a jack high flop.

I'll usually complete in the SB or just go with it in the BB to look for a monster flop/flush draw/boardwalk but other than that I fold it

This is obviously much easier to play with a read on the guy. Miniraises Preflop are always suspicious. Blinds here are $4 so essentially he miniraised. Typically a PF miniraise is done by someone holding a suited connector or low pocket pair. Based on that, I would have called with KJ like you did and then check raised if he bet 1/2 the pot or smaller. Or I would check, see how much he bet, and then perhaps decide to fold. It all depends on the player and whether or not I want to get into a confrontation with this guy. Being out of position with TPMK is not really a great place to be obviously.

My math may be wrong, but I think you overbet the pot. I don't see a reason to do that here. Some players will raise you with nothing just because they don't like the idea that you took away their cont bet. By checking to him, you at least get a little more information on him.

Originally Posted by Checkways

Some players will raise you with nothing just because they don't like the idea that you took away their cont bet. By checking to him, you at least get a little more information on him.

Checking gives you no information. Checking is a very bad plan out of position with a vulnerable pair of Kings. If you're going to play KJ for a raise, then you better be prepared to bet it postflop.

What happened here is our hero flopped a dominated holding. He bet strong for information. The villain then looked at his AK and worried about two pair or trips, so just min re-raised for info. Who knows what he was thinking? Maybe he was thinking he wanted to showdown cheap while simultaneously milking our hero for every penny.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Originally Posted by Checkways

Some players will raise you with nothing just because they don't like the idea that you took away their cont bet. By checking to him, you at least get a little more information on him.

Checking gives you no information. Checking is a very bad plan out of position with a vulnerable pair of Kings. If you're going to play KJ for a raise, then you better be prepared to bet it postflop.

What happened here is our hero flopped a dominated holding. He bet strong for information. The villain then looked at his AK and worried about two pair or trips, so just min re-raised for info. Who knows what he was thinking? Maybe he was thinking he wanted to showdown cheap while simultaneously milking our hero for every penny.

I don't see how it' s possible to get less information by checking here. Betting in early position into a pfr is ZERO information. All you're doing is representing a K and hoping no one will call you. You can still represent a King by check calling or better yet check raising. There's plenty to learn by the way a person bets. The amount, their mannerisms, whether or not they even bet to begin with. I believe that because you are out of position this is a hand that has to be played very carefully. You have to see who you want to go after. Because the pfr is in lp, I think it's even more imperative to check to him. You can be pretty sure that he will bet and based on the info he gives you, you can decide whether or not you want to tussle with this guy with this hand. What if the supertight guy that acts after you calls your bet? Now you're in terrible shape because you have almost no info on this guy. Does he have a better K, flopped a set, two diamonds? What? You don't want to go up against him out of position do you? And to make matters worse, you've just invested 300% more of your chips into this pot than you would have by checking. When no diamond comes out on the turn, now you have to bet even more, just to find out that he has a better K or flopped a set.

This is a mini-raised pot with mulitple callers. Your hand is not that good, you're out of position, and you haven't invested much. I'd rather just give up this hand rather than stick money out there blind.

Furthermore, I doubt the pfr has AK. Not many people will miniraise AK on the button with limpers already in the hand. Basically, I wouldn't put him on a K at all. However, the other people in the hand might have you beat, so better to find out before you go fighting for this small pot.

Just my opinion.

Check raise is win.

If you check on the flop and he makes a continuation bet, what info do you get then. Rondavu is right, you should bet there. And I wouldnt count K as an out. It is only an out against AA which is very unlikely. With any other pair you either has him beat or he has trips(and he prolly wouldnt be minraising with a set but who knows..).

CR is only getting most of the better hands to call(AK and QK might fold) and to fold the weaker ones. With stacks more shallow yes, here IMO definitely no!

I would check raise an aggressive player. I would lead out into a less tricky player. The check raise cost more, and sometimes I find it unnecessary if your opponent isn't likely to make you think.

You really do have to check raise an aggressive player however. Otherwise they don't respect you out of position and give you tough decisions on late streets.

My standard play is to bet out. I'm not saying it's right, but it works for me because I usually find out all I need to know against typical opponents. If I get raised I fold. If I get called I bet the same on the turn unless I can put my opponent on a draw. If I get raised at any point I'm done. otherwise it's a cheap enough showdown.

I haven't put my finger on it yet, but something about check raising a bad kicker makes me uncomfortable.

It's either a set up or a big hand.

-'rilla