a question about c-betting

If I raise lets say KINGS and get a call, and the board comes A high without a K obviously and I'm first to act do I check or bet. If I bet he's never folding an A surely but will fold out a bunch of hands I beat, but if i check he gets to rep the A. Even against a fish who loves to bluff calling here is bad because Aces are such a big part of his range, but I could easily be folding the best hand. I used to instantly turn my hand into a bluff to avoid being bluffed but now my thinking is thats prolly more retarded than checking. This doesn't seem like such a problem when I hold Jacks and a Queen hits I think its just Aces.
How do you guys deal with this?
I'm playing 2nl.

Depends on the opponent. Put him on a range of hands, decide how he plays that range and act accordingly etc etc

I'm first to act my opponent has Aces in his range he also has other a lot of shit I beat, if i don't think my opponent will bluff its not a problem, but when you check a board with an A on it, aren't you telling your opponent its cool for them to bluff you off here. Should I be check raising my Aces more often to stop this.
Everybody has Aces in their range. at 2nl most of the hands people have in their ranges have an A in them, against that type of range shutting down c/f is the easiest way to protect your bankroll.
Is turning your hand into a bluff better than hoping he wont thats all I'm asking.

Why are you afraid of people bluffing? When you have the best hand and people are putting money in the pot, that is a good thing.

Without reads, I think check/calling in this situation is very standard. As you said, betting will often narrow their range to hands that beat you. Checking keeps their range wide and lets you get value from KK.

Your definitely right I should want people to bluff me but I think i'm scared to check/call, for one I hate giving money to the morons that call me with Ace rag.
As it is I think i fold my good hands too often, bluffing really works against me, it's a hard thing to work on.

I think you're generalizing to much. Of course everybody has aces in their range. Part of your question will be answered if you know how many a certain villain has in his range. More will be answered when you know what the rest of his range consists of.

Just saying I have Ks and there's a A on the board tells you nothing. What's the flop texture? Say it's 2tone, does he have any suited cards in his range other than Ax? Do you really want to give him a free card when he does?

Yeah, sometimes checking will gain you some info and allow you to extract value from a certain villain. Sometimes betting will be the best route to get value. As I've heard more than once in this forum, it depends.

sorry i should've found some examples. i think just talking about it has helped though. I knew it was a bit of a stupid thing to ask like there was gonna be a right answer.
lock it, shut it down I'm a dumbass. thanks anyway.

Awww, I was going to post a link to a classic Gabe thread about this very situation. It's in the SNG digest, but the link seems to be dead now. Such a shame.

post it

here's the thread he was talking about, definitely a classic worth reading: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ce-109250.html

Thanks, dahve3d!

I guess in that thread we're in position, so not quite as relevant here. It's been a long time since I read that.

it was good, people should read it. Nice to see I'm not the only one who's scared of being bluffed but i shouldn't be. If I'm gonna put money in it mays well be calling a possible worse hand bluffing and not a better hand calling.
Still OOP is it the same? I think so, but he gets an extra chance to bet, it's harder, by the river he should be able to put you on your hand if he's good.

How are you bluffing with KK on Axx if he never makes an incorrect fold?

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

How are you bluffing with KK on Axx if he never makes an incorrect fold?

I dont understand. did i say that? I think my terrible sentence structure has you confused.
My point was that I can't make A fold but worse than KK would. I'm not bluffing, I'm not getting value from my hand either.

sorry to question you I've found it. And your right I'm not. I was thinking that by betting an A high board I'm repping an Ace which would be a bluff, but I'm not I'm just value betting my hand what he perceives my hand to be is not relevant unless I can get him to fold a better hand than mine, then it would be a bluff.

You have a couple options oop.
1. Bet to take down the dead money when he doesn't have the ace. This turns your hand into a bluff though and you should give up if called. This is a good option, especially against nits and other weak/tight players.
2. You can 'check/fold and not tell anybody.' Since you're oop and a long way from showdown with second pair to the board, you're never winning a big pot here but there are reverse implied odds. This is good against players who float and barrel alot.
3. You can check/call and see what he does on the turn. This is a good option vs bad tags who c-bet then give up too much.

IP, I'd almost always check it back, keep the pot small, and try to get to showdown, playing the hand as a bluff-catcher. This works much better ip than oop because you have alot more control over the pot size. And it'll be more profitable than c-betting and giving up because people routinely stab after you check.

IP is a lot easier, although I used to fuck that up too. at 2nl i think I'm check folding more than anything else, any time i see someone c/c they always end up putting far too much money in and loosing. These are people who would never do this with 2nd pair but because its in their hand, they keep pouring it in. I do feel like I'm wasting a great hand but I don't see a better option.

According to Hilger, when you have KK, you'll see an A on the flop, without hitting a set, 21% of the time.

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

Depends on the opponent. Put him on a range of hands, decide how he plays that range and act accordingly etc etc

this. Is he calling worse? is he ever bluffing if you check? etc

Originally Posted by kickass

sorry to question you I've found it. And your right I'm not. I was thinking that by betting an A high board I'm repping an Ace which would be a bluff, but I'm not I'm just value betting my hand what he perceives my hand to be is not relevant unless I can get him to fold a better hand than mine, then it would be a bluff.

Yessir.

This question really brings up the fundamental reasons for betting. Let's say it's an otherwise dry A high flop, against an opp who will never fold an A and never call with a lower PP (QQ,JJ...) when you bet. Then you have no reason to bet. You don't get value from anything in his range, and you can't bluff him, so why bet? If you're OOP and you think they bluff 100% of the time when checked to, then call them down.

Obviously you have to adjust to your opp and the flop texture, for example you can possibly profitably bet against villains who chase with second pair or with draws. Put them on a range to figure out whether they call with this type of hand often enough to make a bet profitable.

Thanks for the link on playing KK with an A on the board! I've never really known what to do there besides experiencing a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach and just betting to "see where I am" and hoping. (Which of course doesn't work in the long run in this situation as I understand now)

More importantly I ran into this exact situation twice tonight. I checked the flop, called the turn, then shoved the river after they checked... one flipped over QQ and the other JJ.

I owe you a beer at least original author!

There's plenty of spots where betting KK here is the best line because some worse hands will call and you get to take down dead money, and avoid putting yourself in a spot where you're likely going to maske mistakes due to having no clue about your opponents bluff frequencies should you check.

On A93r for instance you can get called by a range like Ax 9x TT JJ 99 33 etc which you're not doing that badly against and you avoid a situation where you call down too light or fold the best hand too often. It is possible that a bet you make can have less than 50% equity vs your opponents continuing range and still be the best option due to being more +EV than alternative lines. Think about that.

If you think your opponent bluffs turns with a very high frequency then check back this sort of flop and call turn bets.

If you think he bluffs turns with a very low frequency then check back and fold to turn bets.

If you're unsure then betting is often better due to the reasons above.

I don't think taking dead money is a good reason to bet with KK on a dry board like A93r. It's a way ahead, way behind situation; and if your opponent is behind there is no equity to steal. Making worse hands fold just denies yourself value. If the board is more coordinated like As9s8x, then there is much more to gain when worse hands (such as draws) fold.

Who cares what you're holding? KK, TT, 78s, 72o... doesn't matter. Is it a good flop to c-bet? Is a good villain to c-bet against? Point is, there are many other things to consider for c-betting than what you're holding.

Just because a decision is +EV doesn't mean it's the best choice.