Question- 4 of a kind on the board... is it a split?

[Atlplayer85]

I thought it was, but a friend of mine suggests that it's not a split.

He posed this question to me:
"If you have pocket jacks, and someone's betting strong, and the flop comes J-K-K, turn K, and river K, and the one person left in the game bet strong preflop, weak on the flop and turn, and then went all in on the river, your correct action is to Call or Fold, and why?"

I said:
" Call, it's a split pot."

He replied:
"Actually, it's more intricate than I thought.

Fold, he's got you outkicked, more likely than not.

Think about it. His betting preflop suggests high cards. He had no king, and a jack is unlikely, so he's holding an ace, or he's holding a queen. More likely the ace, since he jammed the last card.

The best you can hope for is a split pot because you're playing the board. You HAD a killer hand after the flop, but now you're playing four kings, jack kicker. If he has a queen or ace, you're screwed. If he doesn't, you split the pot."

Do kickers even count in this situation?
Or does it depend on the site you play on.
I've always had the impression that it was a split.

[Setzy]

In Holdem the winning hand is always comprised of the best 5 cards. KKKKA or KKKKQ beats KKKKJ. If you have a pair of jacks as in your situation, you are playing the board because your hand doesn't improve on the board any. If he has a pocket A or Q, you lose.

[Atlplayer85]

oh, wow, i was wrong,

didn't know that.
it seems logical, but at the same time...
KKKK is a hand, 4 of a kind.
whereas, KKKKA is not a hand.
you know what i mean?
there's no such hand as a "4 of a kind plus pocket aces!"

that's what threw me off.
so what if, in a hypothetical situation, you're holding AJ, and the opponent is holding AQ? is that a split as well? or does villain win since it's KKKKA + Q kicker?

i'm confused.

[sandstorm]

It's always the five best cards. If the hand is made out out 4 cards and you have the same one, the fifth decides. If the hand is made out of 5 cards and you have the same, you'll split.

[Greedo017]

lol, i think i just told this to someone in another post. i will never forget the first time i ever saw quads on the board. someone pushed when the fourth one came out, no ace on board. then he got called. the next person said in chat "kickers count right?". and the first guy was like "what???" and everyone else folded, and that guy had an expensive lesson that yes kickers count.

to restate what everyone else has said: it is the best 5 card hand. Pick the best 5 cards and only 5 cards you can, that make each of your hands. that is the one and only criteria to see who won a hand.

[givememyleg]

Wow 2 worse cards could not have came. I'm folding this river 99% of the time.

[mb2447]

your friend either a) is Doyle Brunson or b) has read Super/System, as this hand is recounted in the NLHE section.

[Lukie]

oh, wow, i was wrong,

didn't know that.
it seems logical, but at the same time...
KKKK is a hand, 4 of a kind.
whereas, KKKKA is not a hand.
you know what i mean?
there's no such hand as a "4 of a kind plus pocket aces!"

that's what threw me off.
so what if, in a hypothetical situation, you're holding AJ, and the opponent is holding AQ? is that a split as well? or does villain win since it's KKKKA + Q kicker?

i'm confused.

5 card hand.. the does not play in the last example, only the ace. When you have quads, the kicker plays. So you have the 4 of a kind + only 1 card. KKKKA = KKKKA.

Also, I don't want to sound like an asshole, but you shouldn't play for real money. Unless it's money you don't mind losing.

[Pelion]

there's no such hand as a "4 of a kind plus pocket aces!"

It isnt 4 of a kind plus pocket aces. Its 4 of a kind with and A kicker. Onlu one of the Aces plays since you have to make a 5 card hand.

e.g. if you hold AA and your friend holds AK then you tie. KKKKA
If you hold JJ and he holds 62 you tie. KKKKJ

If you hold JJ and he holds AQ you lose

KKKKJ Vs KKKKA

[Knytestorme]

Quads on the board is no different to 2 pair on the board.

If board comes AAKK2, you have QQ, opponent has JJ then you with with AAKKQ v AAKKJ

if board comes AAKKT, you have 88, opponent has 98 then you tie with AAKKT.

if you agree with the above statements, then consider quads on the board to just be 2 pair of the same pair and you will see if follows the same logic.

If you disagree with the two pair example then I suggest you take Lukie's advice.

[Atlplayer85]

oh, wow, i was wrong,

didn't know that.
it seems logical, but at the same time...
KKKK is a hand, 4 of a kind.
whereas, KKKKA is not a hand.
you know what i mean?
there's no such hand as a "4 of a kind plus pocket aces!"

that's what threw me off.
so what if, in a hypothetical situation, you're holding AJ, and the opponent is holding AQ? is that a split as well? or does villain win since it's KKKKA + Q kicker?

i'm confused.

5 card hand.. the does not play in the last example, only the ace. When you have quads, the kicker plays. So you have the 4 of a kind + only 1 card. KKKKA = KKKKA.

Also, I don't want to sound like an asshole, but you shouldn't play for real money. Unless it's money you don't mind losing.

Oh, I've seen many of your posts, Lukie. I already know your temperament tends towards being an asshole. That's fine with me.

Because regardless of what you may think or assume, I am still a winning player and have regained my lost bankroll (1k) in just two weeks playing 50nl (i probably broke a record with that one, since i started with $150).

ty for the enlightenment though, i don't see hands like that every day, matter of fact, in over 6 months of play and 35,000+ recorded hands, i don't think i've ever seen quads on the board once. =)

[Atlplayer85]

Quads on the board is no different to 2 pair on the board.

If board comes AAKK2, you have QQ, opponent has JJ then you with with AAKKQ v AAKKJ

if board comes AAKKT, you have 88, opponent has 98 then you tie with AAKKT.

if you agree with the above statements, then consider quads on the board to just be 2 pair of the same pair and you will see if follows the same logic.

If you disagree with the two pair example then I suggest you take Lukie's advice.

i get it, thanks. =)

[sandstorm]

oh, wow, i was wrong,

didn't know that.
it seems logical, but at the same time...
KKKK is a hand, 4 of a kind.
whereas, KKKKA is not a hand.
you know what i mean?
there's no such hand as a "4 of a kind plus pocket aces!"

that's what threw me off.
so what if, in a hypothetical situation, you're holding AJ, and the opponent is holding AQ? is that a split as well? or does villain win since it's KKKKA + Q kicker?

i'm confused.

5 card hand.. the does not play in the last example, only the ace. When you have quads, the kicker plays. So you have the 4 of a kind + only 1 card. KKKKA = KKKKA.

Also, I don't want to sound like an asshole, but you shouldn't play for real money. Unless it's money you don't mind losing.

Oh, I've seen many of your posts, Lukie. I already know your temperament tends towards being an asshole. That's fine with me.

Because regardless of what you may think or assume, I am still a winning player and have regained my lost bankroll (1k) in just two weeks playing 50nl (i probably broke a record with that one, since i started with $150).

ty for the enlightenment though, i don't see hands like that every day, matter of fact, in over 6 months of play and 35,000+ recorded hands, i don't think i've ever seen quads on the board once. =)

just two friendly suggestions, first, learn bankroll management. playing 50NL with $150 is not a good idea. with $1000 it's just fine, just don't move up to 100NL until you have at least $2000 in the bankroll.
secondly, re-read up on the rules. those should not be a problem, really.