QQ out of position

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP ($7.95)
CO ($18.05)
Button ($10.40)
Hero (SB) ($17.70)
BB ($11.95)
UTG ($12.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.60, 1 fold, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.90) 10, 6, J (3 players)
Hero bets $1.60, 1 fold, CO calls $1.60

Turn: ($5.10) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $3.20, CO calls $3.20

River: ($11.50) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero calls $5

Total pot: $21.50 | Rake: $1
{removed results - a500lbgorilla}

I have really been working hard on my hand reading over the past few days. These are the kind of hands that puzzle me. Not because of the result, which may or may not have gone my way.
On the turn, I really didn't know what do. Which is quite scary I guess.

I will talk through my thinking on each street.

Reads.

CO. 66 hands played. Won one big pot, which he won with a semi bluff, moving all in on the turn with AJ Suited, with a flush draw, on a paired board. The other guy who left after losing had QQ.

VP 35 PFR 20 Limped 17% of hands, but strangely enough not many from the CO, and none from the button. fold to a Cbet 43%.

My gut feelings were he was a bit loose passive. 0.8 flop aggression. 0.7 turn. I had also seen him limp call quite a few times, but never showed down any hands.

MP. One of those crazy maniacs. 48 VP 4.0 aggression.

Pre flop

2 Limpers, and it comes to me in the SB. My standard play is to raise 4x bb + 1 for each Limper. Looking back I possibly should have made it a little more ? Although obviously I don't mind a call, maybe 1 caller is better than 2.

Flop.

Me to act. Looking at the flop, My first thoughts, a flush draw, and some straight draws. J 10 is certainly in a limp callers range, and 66, and possibly 10 10.

I decide to bet, the bet as I would think I am ahead of there ranges, and with draws on the board, I need to protect my hand. I think I would get calls of KJ, QJ, A10 K 10, which are all hands which are all hands Limpers seem to turn up with. I also expect to get looked up with any draws against at least MP. $1.60 In to $1.90. to small ?

The Turn

Now this is where i panic in hands, I got lost, and took every second of my allowed time, and time bank thinking about it. It's a pretty blank card, but I just worry I am behind when I get flatted. I know this is a problem in my game. I decide to bet for the same reasons as the flop. Looking back it was a weakish bet, we were both pretty deep stacked going in to the hand, and still deep after the betting on the flop. I don't like a Check call here, because of the draws, this is where I get in a muddle, deciding some medium between charging draws, and betting in to someone with a better hand. I did think that surely a 2 pair hand would have re raised the flop. So I start thinking it's a set , or I am still ahead.

River.

Completely bottled it here, any bet worth it's while commits me to the pot if I am re raised. 89 just made it's draw, but other than that, No difference really. These are my thoughts as I thought them at the time by the way. So I decide to check and evaluate.

Villain bets $5 less than half the pot. Seems like a very clever value bet, or a complete donk bet. call or fold ? I am assuming a re raise is out of the question ?

Please feel free to pull me to pieces. That's why I posted the hand to get feed back. Your input is much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Blazing_Saddler

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP ($7.95)
CO ($18.05)
Button ($10.40)
Hero (SB) ($17.70)
BB ($11.95)
UTG ($12.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.60, 1 fold, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.90) 10, 6, J (3 players)
Hero bets $1.60, 1 fold, CO calls $1.60

Turn: ($5.10) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $3.20, CO calls $3.20

River: ($11.50) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero calls $5

Total pot: $21.50 | Rake: $1
{removed results}

I have really been working hard on my hand reading over the past few days. These are the kind of hands that puzzle me. Not because of the result, which may or may not have gone my way.
On the turn, I really didn't know what do. Which is quite scary I guess.

I will talk through my thinking on each street.

Reads.

CO. 66 hands played. Won one big pot, which he won with a semi bluff, moving all in on the turn with AJ Suited, with a flush draw, on a paired board. The other guy who left after losing had QQ.

VP 35 PFR 20 Limped 17% of hands, but strangely enough not many from the CO, and none from the button. fold to a Cbet 43%.

My gut feelings were he was a bit loose passive. 0.8 flop aggression. 0.7 turn. I had also seen him limp call quite a few times, but never showed down any hands.

MP. One of those crazy maniacs. 48 VP 4.0 aggression.

Pre flop

2 Limpers, and it comes to me in the SB. My standard play is to raise 4x bb + 1 for each Limper. Looking back I possibly should have made it a little more ? Although obviously I don't mind a call, maybe 1 caller is better than 2.

Flop.

Me to act. Looking at the flop, My first thoughts, a flush draw, and some straight draws. J 10 is certainly in a limp callers range, and 66, and possibly 10 10.

I decide to bet, the bet as I would think I am ahead of there ranges, and with draws on the board, I need to protect my hand. I think I would get calls of KJ, QJ, A10 K 10, which are all hands which are all hands Limpers seem to turn up with. I also expect to get looked up with any draws against at least MP. $1.60 In to $1.90. to small ?

The Turn

Now this is where i panic in hands, I got lost, and took every second of my allowed time, and time bank thinking about it. It's a pretty blank card, but I just worry I am behind when I get flatted. I know this is a problem in my game. I decide to bet for the same reasons as the flop. Looking back it was a weakish bet, we were both pretty deep stacked going in to the hand, and still deep after the betting on the flop. I don't like a Check call here, because of the draws, this is where I get in a muddle, deciding some medium between charging draws, and betting in to someone with a better hand. I did think that surely a 2 pair hand would have re raised the flop. So I start thinking it's a set , or I am still ahead.

River.

Completely bottled it here, any bet worth it's while commits me to the pot if I am re raised. 89 just made it's draw, but other than that, No difference really. These are my thoughts as I thought them at the time by the way. So I decide to check and evaluate.

Villain bets $5 less than half the pot. Seems like a very clever value bet, or a complete donk bet. call or fold ? I am assuming a re raise is out of the question ?

Please feel free to pull me to pieces. That's why I posted the hand to get feed back. Your input is much appreciated.

<Disclaimer : I am totally re-evaluating my game, so better players may give much better advice >
IMO:
Pre-flop is standard.
Two callers is not optimal (being OOP), but let's see what develops.
Flop is good for you, doesn't hurt you too bad, might have hit their ranges... I agree with the c-bet. I like it to define where you stand. Fold by MP leads me to put him on small pair, Ax, etc. Call by CO... hmmm... you mention AJ suited in his range, flush draws, I'd say small pairs, possible sets.... Of that, you are ahead of a lot of it at this point, we're still looking good.

Turn, crap. Doesn't hurt or help you. Might hit him if he has 22, but that isn't likely to have continued, you bet a little over 1/2 pot, he flats it... that puts him on a draw IMO... flush draw probably... without a read that he slow plays sets, I'd have thought a set to re-raise you though, so river of a 7 doesn't help his flush draw.

The question is... IMO... what does he think YOU have to continue to bet this way... pre-flop you indicate strength, flop you said you had the board beat 75% of the time... yet he calls... what does he call that with? High pair? Maybe pair of jacks or two pair, JQs, JTs, set of 6's? Turn he calls 2/3 pot bet... that narrows him down to a pretty good hand I think... at this point I think I'm putting him on TJs and he has you... but I may be way off... it is only 10NL.

I wasn't quite done when I hit submit instead of preview darn it...

Ok, now river... you check, showing some weakness and doubt... so he can narrow you down now to probably a high pair with a busted flush draw... but he bets out anyway yet it is only less than 1/2 pot... is he betting for value or to steal thinking you missed and have been bluffing? Have you been bluffing? If so, he is stealing. If not, he is probably betting for value and may have two pair...

No I hadn't been bluffing. It isn't something I do an awful lot of at $10 NL. Without a good read I can get someone to lay down a hand. I pick my spots, and usually do it with my weaker hands when I have no showdown value.

I had already stacked someone with QQ. Only a one pair hand by the end, but it was a lot more simple hand to play, as for one I was in position, on a dry board, against a complete tool.

So I guess your answer is it was a value bet.

This hand is so incredibly standard, I'm kind of confused why you posted it. You played it perfectly.

I just want to say that your post is VERY good and should be an example of future posts in this forum. I like your analysis. The turn is a definite bet because we get a lot of value from weaker stuff. Remember to make b/f more of your line than c/c, especially on the turn when people aren't betting their (semi)bluffs more often. The river is a semi scary card for sure but I think c/c is pretty good. B/f still wouldn't be horrible considering how passive the guy is but c/c is ok.

Honestly, if you posts more hands like this or even do this type of analysis with your other hands/other posted hands and can kind of do this at the table you'll be crushing microstakes and will do very well at small stakes.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

This hand is so incredibly standard, I'm kind of confused why you posted it. You played it perfectly.

Because I am trying to learn. There were points when I was confused in the hand, so even though the decisions were possibly correct, I wasn't sure.

kmind _ Thank you, I am really working hard not to just play first level poker. I have just got holdem manager which helped with the analysis, ( I love the HUD on it) I was also spotting reads without using it too obviously. am still getting to grips with it a little at the moment.

You check river because the bulk of villains range (which is just poker-speak for "the most likely hands your opponent has") is missed draws (which can't call a bet) and top pair hands (which MAY call a bet) Since there are a lot more ways to miss draws than to make top pairs hands AND since when you check your opponent will nearly always bet his top pair, means you should clearly check to either get top pair to put money in the pot OR to get the missed draw to bluff so you can call.

Also, the 7 completes a straight draw so check/calling further minimizes your risk of getting bluff-raised as well as minimizing the damage done when he *does* hit (he raises and you have to fold).

So there is literally nothing to be gained betting this river.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

You check river because the bulk of villains range (which is just poker-speak for "the most likely hands your opponent has") is missed draws (which can't call a bet) and top pair hands (which MAY call a bet Since there are a lot more ways to miss draws than to make top pairs hands) AND since when you check your opponent will nearly always bet his top pair, means you should clearly check to either get to pair to put money in the pot OR to get the missed draw to bluff so you can call.

Good point here, but who were you addressing it to, I am assuming me since my point didn't hit this and I think you kind of changed my thinking...

Originally Posted by Blazing_Saddler

Originally Posted by euphoricism

This hand is so incredibly standard, I'm kind of confused why you posted it. You played it perfectly.

Because I am trying to learn. There were points when I was confused in the hand, so even though the decisions were possibly correct, I wasn't sure.

So hardcore high5! Best attitude any poster can have!

also, reading your analysis you'll probably be a better player than eupho in 5 to 6 days.

The turn comes with experience. You get a feel for how opponents react to your turn bets and feel a lot more comfortable. I would be for value and be confident when called. The turn is like the doorway to actual poker, not much is written on turn/river play because its just an extension of great flop play. 2 changes nothing but opponents outlook on the hand because he only has the river left to catch. He'll call with just about any J in his range among other things which you beat. You're betting for value and should be happy to throw a slice of your chips in the pot.

Originally Posted by Monty3038

Originally Posted by Blazing_Saddler

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP ($7.95)
CO ($18.05)
Button ($10.40)
Hero (SB) ($17.70)
BB ($11.95)
UTG ($12.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.60, 1 fold, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.90) 10, 6, J (3 players)
Hero bets $1.60, 1 fold, CO calls $1.60

Turn: ($5.10) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $3.20, CO calls $3.20

River: ($11.50) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero calls $5

Total pot: $21.50 | Rake: $1
{removed results}

I have really been working hard on my hand reading over the past few days. These are the kind of hands that puzzle me. Not because of the result, which may or may not have gone my way.
On the turn, I really didn't know what do. Which is quite scary I guess.

I will talk through my thinking on each street.

Reads.

CO. 66 hands played. Won one big pot, which he won with a semi bluff, moving all in on the turn with AJ Suited, with a flush draw, on a paired board. The other guy who left after losing had QQ.

VP 35 PFR 20 Limped 17% of hands, but strangely enough not many from the CO, and none from the button. fold to a Cbet 43%.

My gut feelings were he was a bit loose passive. 0.8 flop aggression. 0.7 turn. I had also seen him limp call quite a few times, but never showed down any hands.

MP. One of those crazy maniacs. 48 VP 4.0 aggression.

Pre flop

2 Limpers, and it comes to me in the SB. My standard play is to raise 4x bb + 1 for each Limper. Looking back I possibly should have made it a little more ? Although obviously I don't mind a call, maybe 1 caller is better than 2.

Flop.

Me to act. Looking at the flop, My first thoughts, a flush draw, and some straight draws. J 10 is certainly in a limp callers range, and 66, and possibly 10 10.

I decide to bet, the bet as I would think I am ahead of there ranges, and with draws on the board, I need to protect my hand. I think I would get calls of KJ, QJ, A10 K 10, which are all hands which are all hands Limpers seem to turn up with. I also expect to get looked up with any draws against at least MP. $1.60 In to $1.90. to small ?

The Turn

Now this is where i panic in hands, I got lost, and took every second of my allowed time, and time bank thinking about it. It's a pretty blank card, but I just worry I am behind when I get flatted. I know this is a problem in my game. I decide to bet for the same reasons as the flop. Looking back it was a weakish bet, we were both pretty deep stacked going in to the hand, and still deep after the betting on the flop. I don't like a Check call here, because of the draws, this is where I get in a muddle, deciding some medium between charging draws, and betting in to someone with a better hand. I did think that surely a 2 pair hand would have re raised the flop. So I start thinking it's a set , or I am still ahead.

River.

Completely bottled it here, any bet worth it's while commits me to the pot if I am re raised. 89 just made it's draw, but other than that, No difference really. These are my thoughts as I thought them at the time by the way. So I decide to check and evaluate.

Villain bets $5 less than half the pot. Seems like a very clever value bet, or a complete donk bet. call or fold ? I am assuming a re raise is out of the question ?

Please feel free to pull me to pieces. That's why I posted the hand to get feed back. Your input is much appreciated.

<Disclaimer : I am totally re-evaluating my game, so better players may give much better advice >
IMO:
Pre-flop is standard.
Two callers is not optimal (being OOP), but let's see what develops.
Flop is good for you, doesn't hurt you too bad, might have hit their ranges... I agree with the c-bet. I like it to define where you stand. This is the kinda bad cbet logic I was getting at in the other thread. You shouldn't have to bet to see where your at or bet to let the other guys know anything. You should bet for a much better reason. Here it's for value. Lots of worse hands can call, draws and Jxs in his range
Fold by MP leads me to put him on small pair, Ax, etc. He's out of the hand, I'm not knocking the practice. I just think it's odd. Maybe it is good to think about what people fold. Thinking about it... I kinda like it. Call by CO... hmmm... you mention AJ suited in his range, flush draws, I'd say small pairs, possible sets.... Of that, you are ahead of a lot of it at this point, we're still looking good.Mmhmm!

Turn, crap. Doesn't hurt or help you. Might hit him if he has 22 but what % of his range does 22 represent? should we be worried?, but that isn't likely to have continued cool, you bet a little over 1/2 pot, he flats it... that puts him on a draw IMO... flush draw probably... without a read that he slow plays sets, I'd have thought a set to re-raise you though, so river of a 7 doesn't help his flush draw. But what would he do with a flush draw on a river 7? All of his jacks are still capable of showing up on the river, what would they do?

The question is... IMO... what does he think YOU have to continue to bet this way... pre-flop you indicate strength, flop you said you had the board beat 75% of the time... yet he calls... what does he call that with? High pair? Maybe pair of jacks or two pair, JQs, JTs, set of 6's? Turn he calls 2/3 pot bet... that narrows him down to a pretty good hand I think... at this point I think I'm putting him on TJs and he has you... but I may be way off... it is only 10NL. [b]I really like where this paragraph is getting to. But sometimes it's easier to think "He should have put me on XX!" and that kind of reasoning is liable to blow up in your face. You need to take the onus for knowing what hes capable of thinking and doing. Not a knock any of your post, I just think you said it best, "it's only 10NL"

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

also, reading your analysis you'll probably be a better player than eupho in 5 to 6 days.

The turn comes with experience. You get a feel for how opponents react to your turn bets and feel a lot more comfortable. I would be for value and be confident when called. The turn is like the doorway to actual poker, not much is written on turn/river play because its just an extension of great flop play. 2 changes nothing but opponents outlook on the hand because he only has the river left to catch. He'll call with just about any J in his range among other things which you beat. You're betting for value and should be happy to throw a slice of your chips in the pot.

I think my problem with turn play, comes from playing mainly stt's when I first started playing. The chips often go in on the flop in a sit and go. Missing out a lot on the later streets, and also pot commitment also means decisions are much easier in stt's.

Also another thing which is worth a mention, which I feel had a negative affect on my game. I have recently read the Harrington on holdem cash game books. After I started playing cash games, I couldn't wait to read these books, as the original Harrington on holdem books taught me an awful lot.

There is a lot of talk in the Cash books about big hand big pot, small hand small pot. He suggests slowing down a lot. He obviously knows a lot more about poker than myself, and plays against much better players, which is where the problem may be. As you can value bet much lighter against fishy calling stations.

I probably took it all out of context in adding it to my game. I would still say the books are no where near as good as the original ones though.

Just to conclude the hand. He actually had JJ

I didn't even have this hand in my mind. As he had limped behind an early limper, and flatted my raise. Was quite a clever play I guess. Although I would have been more aggressive with the flush draw coming on the flop, and the fact I had already shown enough aggression to make him believe I had a hand that would pay him off.


Thanks for all the input

make sure to make a note on this player.

Originally Posted by mrhappy333

make sure to make a note on this player.

Done.

Originally Posted by Blazing_Saddler

Just to conclude the hand. He actually had JJ

I didn't even have this hand in my mind. As he had limped behind an early limper, and flatted my raise. Was quite a clever play I guess. Although I would have been more aggressive with the flush draw coming on the flop, and the fact I had already shown enough aggression to make him believe I had a hand that would pay him off.


Thanks for all the input

No no no, its an AWFUL play. He played the nuts the same way he should play a top pair no kicker type of hand!

[quote="a500lbgorilla"]

Originally Posted by Monty3038

Originally Posted by Blazing_Saddler

Turn, crap. Doesn't hurt or help you. Might hit him if he has 22 but what % of his range does 22 represent? should we be worried?, but that isn't likely to have continued cool, you bet a little over 1/2 pot, he flats it... that puts him on a draw IMO... flush draw probably... without a read that he slow plays sets, I'd have thought a set to re-raise you though, so river of a 7 doesn't help his flush draw. But what would he do with a flush draw on a river 7? All of his jacks are still capable of showing up on the river, what would they do?

RIlla asks how much of his range 22 represents.

This is a great question, and I'll be honest, one I can't answer in the heat of a hand.

Outside of the heat of the hand, I can do the math, but it is still fuzzy for me in an effective way to make it useful.

If his range is 22+, flush draws, 22 represents a very small part of his range. JJ itself also represents a small part of his range. Thus you should be looking to extract value.

The last part of it is what would he do in a couple of situations rilla mentions... and he would do what he did, bet it for value. The problem I think at 10NL though is top pair will bet the same way. The weak bet on the river could be interpreted as a value bet or a top pair type hand (AJ, etc) which you have to call down.