QQ oop 4b pot

villain is relative unknown but already showing a love of the 3-bet. 25-12-9. I 4b pre for value, flop sucks balls cos it smashes his perception of my range AND a large chunk of his calling range. I just don't see him calling a c-bet with stuff I beat and it's hard to bluff effectively here. But giving up seems gross, and I have flush out equity even vs his calling range. Thoughts?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($25.58)
BB ($20.02)
UTG ($36)
UTG+1 ($25)
Hero (MP1) ($40.52)
MP2 ($30.41)
CO ($21.25)
Button ($46.92)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero bets $0.85, 1 fold, CO raises to $2.90, 3 folds, Hero raises to $5.50, CO calls $2.60

Flop: ($11.35) A, 2, 5 (2 players)
um, ok, how big?

i would c/r or if he checks back lead turn.

How does villain see you? Does he think you could be 4-bet bluffing?

I don't think he has KK+ because he didn't 5-bet shove. If he has an ace, of course he's never folding, but I don't think he has an ace all the time. Against QQ, JJ, AK and AQs (of course his range could be wider), you're 54%. Say he folds QQ and JJ when you shove, that's a third of his range and you're 35% against the aces he calls with. So, if you did shove (just checking out the EV as a benchmark), you win 11 a third of the time, and two thirds of the time, you win 26 a third of those times and lose 15 two thirds of those times, for a final EV of about $2.80.

So, even tho shoving rarely gets called by worse or folds better, you have alot of equity in the pot right now, and I think you should shove to capture it.

alot of that has to do with the fact that it's a 4-bet pot. you have considerable equity in a huge pot, so you kinda have to go with it.

Originally Posted by couriermike

you have considerable equity in a huge pot, so you kinda have to go with it.

So if we checked and Villain shoved, you would call?

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

So if we checked and Villain shoved, you would call?

no, the FE (there is some) is necessary to make it +EV. ofc not calling ai with a draw. but shoving is +EV (probably) while c/f'ing is 0EV. you could b/c i guess but that probably prices you in, so just shove.

so i meant fold equity + showdown equity.

treebet and micro's b/c line seems designed to keep the bluffs in. i guess he still has alot of those if he's 3bet happy but it would take a good read to think he shoves anything other than an ace after being 4-bet. of course if his ace is not very good, he might not shove but still wouldn't fold. possibly he folds those to a shove.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

So if we checked and Villain shoved, you would call?

The question is not addressed to me but I'll take a shot:
if villain shoves all hands where he holds an A (or two) without a spade K, and his KK's without the Ks, his range is AA,KcKd,KcKh,KdKh,AcKc,AdKd,AhKh,AcQc,AdQd,AhQh,Ac Kd,AcKh,AdKc,AdKh,AhKc,AhKd,AcQd,AcQh,AdQc,AdQh,Ah Qc,AhQd
then it's a call (40% equity, 36% pot odds).

Is this a good shoving range for villain when he is checked to? Can't think of what else he would want to shove with (I am interested because that's what I would consider shoving with if I was him, wanna know if it's a decent play)

I think that your 4bet is too small for starters. Granted his stack size is under 100BB so I can see making it this size, however, I think that if you make it more like 6.00 -6.25 you're more likely to get it in pre which I assume is a good thing vs this guy. In general I find that making it less than 2x isn't going to fold out too much that he decided to 3bet with.

It's kind of a fucked spot because you're bet calling all of your Ax and he also has a lot of Ax. I think you basically just either have to bet enough to give yourself correct odds to call with your flush outs or possibly check and evaluate based on his bet size. I mean, betting is semi-bluffing since he never has worse when he calls or raises but checking turns your hand super face up. shrug.... I probably would check here and most likely fold but I'm a nit :P

wtf @ the 4b size OOP, b/c the flop(hint:bet rly tiny)

what she said ^

What's wrong with a checkraise? It gives you both fold equity and completely shifts his perception of your range.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

What's wrong with a checkraise? It gives you both fold equity and completely shifts his perception of your range.

pretty sure only very terrible players are b/fing this flop, also what the hell are you repping by c/r'ing?

Originally Posted by caddie444

pretty sure only very terrible players are b/fing this flop, also what the hell are you repping by c/r'ing?

Well you're repping AxKs and QQ and KK both with a spade somewhere in there.

The big reason I bring it up is because I saw this particular situation in NLHE Theory and Practice the other day. Maybe I read it wrong, but it sure made sense to me then. They suggested a C/R on the turn IIRC.