Q10 IP to 3bet

i don't mind playing this IP to a 3 bet but actually its probably pretty bad, but flops standard?

villan is 30/20

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($10)
BB ($25.35)
UTG ($25)
Hero ($41.28)
BTN ($37.06)

Dealt to Hero T Q

fold, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, fold, BB raises to $2.50, Hero calls $1.75

FLOP ($5.10) J 6 K

BB bets $2.66, Hero raises to $6.25, BB raises to $20.99, Hero raises to $35.73, BB calls $1.86 (AI)

I'm going to assume you don't have a great read on villain else you would have posted it. Either that or you're gunna pull one of those "zomg I got criticized, better pull out my awesome read that justifies my play" cards.

Fold preflop without some decent postflop reads. obv stacking flop is fine.

Flop is super standard. Pre flop is very meh. Actually pre flop I fold, unless you have great reads on his 3 betting range and his post flop tendencies I don't see the point.

agree with fold pre and raise/raise/raise/raise raise/call etc on the flop until all the money is in

nope, no great reads. i honestly love being criticized, i take it very constructively and try to never make the mistake in this situation again, so let me have it.

i always try to justify bad plays to myself, e.x by saying its not that bad because i'm IP.

TY.

As said before. fold preflop, get it in on the flop. If this was like Q8s or something I could see validity in 4betting but lol at that anyway. Just fold :P

after he 3bets you preflop.. thats a super great time to fold.. you need to be super deep and sure to stack to justify this.

flop is fine..

no doubt this has been said before anyway.

so what are we calling this 3 bet with AQs+ JJ+ AK? do we 4 bet KK+ or flat?

i would consider the possiblilty of set mining with 22-99, TT/JJ play ok as overpairs but would be careful. QQ/AK i call, sometimes AQs, KK+ i 4 bet. (unless trapping seems like a good idea, but i like a read that villain is overly aggro for this)

this needs to be adjusted based on reads. you said 30/20 but you didnt say how many hands this is over, also can change this range based on villains 3bet stat.

there's no shame in folding when you get 3bet. This is a blind steal with a hint of equity for you. You want to either take the blinds of have the villain flat and take the pot with a cbet.

To understand why, consider potential flops that you hit that arent big draws..

Q 3 8

T 9 2

how do you play these if villain bets into you, how do you play if villain c/c's

i think your best option is often going to be call flop re-eval turn, and you're going to be behind most times vs hands like AQ, KQ, JJ+.. the only time you have strength is when you get a flop like you did. And in that situation your ev is limited because you're not a huge favourite, and you may be facing a FH if the board pairs.

Originally Posted by scott_owen

i would consider the possiblilty of set mining with 22-99, TT/JJ play ok as overpairs but would be careful. QQ/AK i call, sometimes AQs, KK+ i 4 bet. (unless trapping seems like a good idea, but i like a read that villain is overly aggro for this)

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why r u 4 betting AQ and flatting AK/QQ? i agree i would flat AK/QQ IP but i wouldn't 4 bet AQs.

this needs to be adjusted based on reads. you said 30/20 but you didnt say how many hands this is over, also can change this range based on villains 3bet stat

sorry iirc it was over around 50-60 hands so overly relevant, not sure why i didn't add 3 bet stats, but i'll be honest i don't think i even looked before i called which is of course makes this even more terrible.



i c what your saying about those flops, but i don't really feel to uncomfortable playing flops like that IP, if he leads i probably call one street and unless i pick up a lot of equity on the turn i probably fold to another bet, i don't think he's going to double barrel bluff us, when we call flop, he's narrowed our range to pretty much TP min since those flops aren't super connected and we called a 3bet, i know those were just examples and there's so many other situations that are going to put us in tough spots, but being IP is noice.

but yea everyone has explained pretty well why folding pre is best, TY.

Originally Posted by Donachello

As said before. fold preflop, get it in on the flop. If this was like Q8s or something I could see validity in 4betting but lol at that anyway. Just fold :P

I don't really understand this, or were you joking lol? why would you even consider 4 betting Q8s and not Q10s since Q10 will have more equity if he flats a 4 bet.

i was writing in a rush and poor grammer has screwed me... I meant flat with qq/ak and depending on player reads sometimed flat aqs. ..4bet kk+ only.

My flop examples were obviously lacking detail. They were not meant to suggest some kind of solid rule, just highlight necessary considerations. Its good to have a plan for different flops in a situation like this because your value is coming from position and reads and you need to stay focused on that since the hands exact value is going to be less of a consideration postflop unless you flop the nuts.

Originally Posted by scott_owen

i would consider the possiblilty of set mining with 22-99,

Eh, I'm not really sure that you'ld have the odds to setmine after a 3bet.

Originally Posted by fulksy

I don't really understand this, or were you joking lol? why would you even consider 4 betting Q8s and not Q10s since Q10 will have more equity if he flats a 4 bet.

hahah yea i was about to comment on this

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

hahah yea i was about to comment on this

Because if you had to have one in your flatting 3bet range and one in your 4betting range I'd rather play QTs IP in a 3bet pot than Q8s which is much more of a 4bet fold hand instead of calling a 3bet. Regardless, that is pretty much beside the point as folding is more optimal here anyway. The point is you are expecting to get a high % of folds with a 4bet and aren't really concerned with postflop playability as there isn't a huge different between Q8s and Qts in a 4bet pot when called whereas there is a decent difference between QTs and Q8s when calling a 3bet IP.

So the answer is no I wasn't joking but I was more of just making a theoretical point and am in no way advocating 4betting here lol.

Originally Posted by Donachello

Because if you had to have one in your flatting 3bet range and one in your 4betting range I'd rather play QTs IP in a 3bet pot than Q8s which is much more of a 4bet fold hand instead of calling a 3bet. Regardless, that is pretty much beside the point as folding is more optimal here anyway. The point is you are expecting to get a high % of folds with a 4bet and aren't really concerned with postflop playability as there isn't a huge different between Q8s and Qts in a 4bet pot when called whereas there is a decent difference between QTs and Q8s when calling a 3bet IP.

So the answer is no I wasn't joking but I was more of just making a theoretical point and am in no way advocating 4betting here lol.

ldo, its just you were liek FOLD QTs ...IF IT WAS Q8s ID MAYBE 4bet....wehn obviously if you cannot profitably call with QTs it would be better to bluff with that hand than with Q8s

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

ldo, its just you were liek FOLD QTs ...IF IT WAS Q8s ID MAYBE 4bet....wehn obviously if you cannot profitably call with QTs it would be better to bluff with that hand than with Q8s

yea thats just i was thinking, but Don i see your generall point.

if say were both like 180-200BB deep would it be profitable to call IP here?

Originally Posted by Shotglass

Eh, I'm not really sure that you'ld have the odds to setmine after a 3bet.

thats why i used the word "consider" ..depends how light villain 3bets and how aggressive villain is post flop. Also i'd obviously like it if villain was a little deeper.

beyond that it depends on whether you can use the positional advantage and push villain off better hands post flop.

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regarding the Q8 debate, I can understand why you would 4bet that and fold Q10. I would assume there's a certain level of metagame. If i want to paint myself as crazy LAG Q8 does more for me than Q10. You also simplify your decision with Q8 since its such garbage that its going to fold out vs pretty much any action post flop. So its about balancing ranges right? you want villain to have no clue whether your 4bets are total rubbish or KK+

I probably wouldnt ever do it though at this level, I dont feel like there's any point getting this involved in concepts like that when villains are happy to throw money at me without me giving them reasons to spaz like this.

Originally Posted by scott_owen

i would consider the possiblilty of set mining with 22-99.

22-55 != 88-99

Don't setmine in 3b pots 100bb deep. Decent broadways are generally better to defend against light 3bettors than stinky low pocket pairs.

what sort of postflop reads do you have? what is the sample size that provided you with the 30/20 stats? what are your thoughts on the composition of his 3bet range?

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

what sort of postflop reads do you have? what is the sample size that provided you with the 30/20 stats? what are your thoughts on the composition of his 3bet range?

couldn't quite remember so went back and looked, but this is just for analysis, at the time i don't think i looked at his 3bet stats when i called which is terrible LDO, one of my leaks is bad note taking, and making decisions to quickly.

this was over 76 hands his 3 bet was 8% but 14% from BB.
can't remember my post flop reads on him, but can't remember seeing anything crazy

now that i went back and looked i'm not sure i can give the 3 bet range that i thought at the time because going back and seeing his stats might of influenced me, but i would say 88+ A10s+ KQs+ AJ+ maybe some random bluffs

Originally Posted by d0zer

22-55 != 88-99

Don't setmine in 3b pots 100bb deep. Decent broadways are generally better to defend against light 3bettors than stinky low pocket pairs.

oh the irony in this statement.

Originally Posted by bikes

oh the irony in this statement.

Hey, i've got enough experience setmining in 3b pots to know that it sucks. Trying to help the yoof of today avoid my mistakes.






...what am I talking about, when you flop sets like I do, you can setmine in 5b shoved pots