Put down the chips and step away from your hand...

There comes a time in every poker players life (day?) that you make a "move" (i.e. bluff, steal, semi-bluff) and get caught by someone who actually has the cards.

I am just getting to the point where I am starting to recognize that moment at some point before the cards are flipped over.

BUT I am not quite to the level where I TRUST that instinct.
Instead, I try some (hee haw-gurgle gurgle) REALLY dumb "move" (re-raising or pushing) to convince whoever it is that has the cards that, no no, reality is inverted and that indeed, his/her own senses are lying to them, and I, not they, have the nuts.

Naturally, this fails.
and I lose.
(and should)

Does anyone have a mantra or some pills I could take that make it ok to fold after trying to steal?
(new from Phizer corp... Fold-eZ, in convenient tablet form... from the makers of Donk-away and Dr. Tom's Shark Repellent)

It's like a bad teenage relationship sometimes... I know it's wrong, I know she's gonna break my heart, I'm writing bad poetry about her and yet, do I walk away from Q3 off suit in the face of a made flush? NOPE. PUSH PUSH PUSH...

Maybe this should go in tales...

Someone please flame me til I learn... (thanks in advance)
(or alternately, you could just add me to your buddy lists and poker-stalk me til I make you rich)

You are an idiot. Cut it out.

nothing wrong with making moves, just make sure you have a reason for making them, not just doing it on a whim

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

You are an idiot. Cut it out.

Exactly.
Thank you.

Gabe:
I think I am doing it for reasons and not whims.
But since the whole point of the excercise is to examine that, let's take a look...
I normally steal when:
A) The blinds are past 3rd or 4th level (worth stealing)
B) in late ish position (MP+2, CO, SB, BB)
C) I haven't seen any pots in a rotation or 2, OR
D) I recently showed something down with a quality hand (That I raised preflop)
Normally I wait til 3 of these are true.

But it's post flop where I'm in dark territory. Essentially, I shouldn't BE postflop. And it's there that the Donkey me starts whispering..."c-bet"
Which is -EV right? I think this happens when my PF Raise doesn't buy the button and I end up acting first.

So maybe I can tighten this leak by more careful position selection?

instead of focusing on the current situation you are in, consider everyone else. how do the players in the blinds play? are they loose enuogh to call too many raises? do people think you raise too much? is your stack size "good" enough to avoid making steals? are the blinds's stack sizes short enough so you have to call if they go allin? are any players after you 'desperate' ?

there are more factors then what you are considerings

Ooohh ooohhh I get what this is really about!!!

Hmmm.
Do I NEED to steal... that's a good one.
But if I do need to (low M), doesn't that sort of mean I'm gonna get called more often when attempting it?

I think sometimes I steal because I think I've been too passive. I suppose that's a leap ahead from doing the same thing without realizing it's stealing... But then, if I don't get away from it when they call, That's just as bad...

This poker is tricky stuff...

Originally Posted by magneticskull

But if I do need to (low M), doesn't that sort of mean I'm gonna get called more often when attempting it?

The keyword is NEED. When you are shorstacked theres nothing else you can do to stay in it but either a) steal b) catch great hands.

Rather than worrying about being called as a shortstack trying to steal, you should be more worried about blinding off half your stack to the point where even if you do catch a monster and double up, you're only back to where you were a few hands ago. Stealing is absolutely essential as a shortstack, while you can cruise a little more with a bigger stack and try to catch someone on an actual hand since you have a little bit more time to wait.

Pay attention to the players , take note of how often they fold when someone raises their BB, and target those people for steals. Also you should get slightly more aggressive near the bubble where people are just trying to hang on for the money.

Originally Posted by magneticskull

There comes a time in every poker players life (day?) that you make a "move" (i.e. bluff, steal, semi-bluff) and get caught by someone who actually has the cards.

In my ever so graceful attempt to steal a huge pot... I having Ace/Rag suited, opened with a bet half my stack size on a flop that came 10 10 10 just to be called by the fella who happened to have A10 offsuit. I thought to myself "Dude... Wyldfoxx... ... ... ... No..."
But... I did go on to finish second in that tourney! LOL

Your post brings to mind a hand I played last night on 5oNl.
I'm in the BB it is folded to the SB who raises to $1.25, I have 10, 3 off suit, without a read I might fold even though it appears to be a blind steal but my cards are so weak.
(However I have a read on this guy as 30 minutes ago I watched him re-raise a flop and put in a pot sized bet on the river only to be called down & he had nothing.)
So I re-raised him from the B.B $4, he called flop 9, 8, 2 , he bets 5$, I re-raise 15$ & he folds.
So basically don't try steal at a table where you've already seen as very loose & as someone who likes to bluff.

On my previous post I said the flop came down 9,8,2 it actually came down
10,8,2 (giving me top pair with weak kicker) but against that opponent
with that read I felt it was +ev re-raising him on the flop.

stealing is definitely pretty tough, but also definitely not bad. i only recently have gotten decent at stealing significant sized pots. i previously was pretty good at spewing. while a lot goes into it like gabe was talking about, the most important thing I've realized is a lot of it depends on my opponent, especially at lower limits. tag or lag or whatever, a lot of people are capable of making some really terrible calls. its finding the tag or lag who is showing weakness and is capable of folding that you need to be able to recognize. i have made plenty of bluffs that at the time i thought were beautiful, but when the guy called with middle pair and won, they didn't seem so beautiful anymore.

It's funny, I was in a $1 (45 man) SNG last night and was seeing people show down LUDICROUS hands... On one hand I saw 3 guys all in pre flop with:
5s3s
Qd6s
7h8c
(I think the guy paired up his 8 to win)
I wasn't even IN the hand and it tilted me right off my game...

Halfway through that SNG, I was in like 4th position out of 20, and had taken down only 1 pot without showdown... (normally, it would be somewhere in the 6-12 range, with 2 or 3 shown at that point)
They were calling with ANYTHING. which would be good if I had some cards (and was 66% of the time when I did) but made it very hard to play anything but honest poker. (cringe)