Pre Flop Revisited

I have been playing a lot of 100NL and 200NL lately, and felt like rehashing open raising hand ranges based on position in a full ring game.
I haven't looked at a starting hand chart in about 6 months, and haven't really cared to much about preflop in general.

The Positions are as follows:
BN,CO,HJ,MP2,MP1,UTG+2, UTG+1,UTG,BB,SB (10 handed)
I will simplify this by combining MP and UTG positions in my ranges.

Lately I have been raising somewhere near the following when folded to me:
UTG- AQo+,AJs+,KQs, TT+
MP- JTs+,KJs+,ATs+,KQo,AJo+,77+
HJ- Suited connectors, JTo+,J9s+,KTs+,A8s+,ATo, any pair
CO- Suited connectors to 3 gappers, 78o+, any 2 cards above 10, A2s+
BN- Any Suited, Connected, or above 9, Any A, Any pair
SB- *Same as HJ
* I would specifically like some discussion on this, since common play seems to raise the same or larger range from the SB as one would raise from the button, but I feel the lack of position is a huge detriment. I will just limp with many hands from the SB that I would have raised on the button, such as T3s.

The above ranges require something that I see slowly slipping away from the tables month by month... "Post flop skill"
The tournaments are increasingly becoming 2 street games, and that seems to be spilling over to NL cash games also.
The main reason: It works. You can push AA/KK preflop, limp all other pocket pairs, push with a set, and make a profit.
Add in open raising 5xBB with AK/AQ and QQ to mix up your game.
Once your advanced enough you can start limping suited aces and push every time you make a flush. (This requires some knowledge of "pot odds" unfortunately as you may have to call a bet postflop)
I just hijacked my own thread... ooops.

The point is: What range of hands should one open with based on position to maximize value from lower limit Holdem games?

Thread Hijack #2:

I recently played in a $25NL 6 max game.
As my stack grew, I became more agressive. I had noticed that on this particular table, many players would call a preflop raise, but would rarely continue past the flop without TPTK or better.
I got to a point with about $70 on the table, where my open-raising standards were similar to what I posted for the button for any position. I would then put in a pot-sized continuation bet and usually take the pot down. If played back at, itwasn't hard to let go of my hand, but If I had a good hand I would take the opponents stack.
The turn became check or push. If I thought A) a push would win the pot or B) I would win if called, then a push was clearly correct.
I doubled someone up 3 times in about 2 hours.
I took someone's whole stack more often than that.
I left the table with over $200.
A combination of preflop loose play and post flop fear make for the most profitable NL games.

yup, what you said about postflop fear is key for NL. Guys like michael1123 and H@llinggol take it to the extreme and raise any 2, knowing that the combination of money value, and post flop fear equates to pure profit.

It is possible to make money from opponents who fold too much, it just takes work. This strategy is defnitely good for party 25-200 NL because the games are truly weak tight on an average day, and a good post flop player can rake it in if he's careful.

On Re-raising and varying bet sizes:

I don't technically vary the size of my raises. My PFR to open is what ever is consistent for the table. If a typical raise is 4x, That is what I raise no matter what I am raising with. The exceptions occur with limpers before I raise. I then raise 3xbb +1bb for every limper.
My reraises are similar. I typically will reraise to 3x whatever their bet was i.e. if they raise to $1 in a 25NL game, I raise to $3.
I reraise with a VERY small range. effectively QQ-AA or maybe AK against a loose raiser if I have position. Reraising gives away a good deal of information about your hand, and will tend to prevent you being paid off by a second best hand. If you are confident with your hand reading skills, the majority of the money you make should be post flop.
This effect is also true for my raising range against limpers. While it doesn't shrink to QQ+, it does cutout all but the big suited broadway cards and probably TT+. Outside this range, all hands that I would have raised with given my position become limping hands. I am now playing for pot odds.

Originally Posted by jmontis

yup, what you said about postflop fear is key for NL. Guys like michael1123 and H@llinggol take it to the extreme and raise any 2, knowing that the combination of money value, and post flop fear equates to pure profit.

It is possible to make money from opponents who fold too much, it just takes work. This strategy is defnitely good for party 25-200 NL because the games are truly weak tight on an average day, and a good post flop player can rake it in if he's careful.

Originally Posted by Michael1123

I basically raise any decent hand (suited or connected or high cards or any pocket pair) to 4xBB, then bet at almost every flop, and show most of my bluffs to get the crappiest image I can. I see around 50% of the flops in NL ring games.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=11389

ya that just speaks for itself. Yes he got lucky, but the weaker players fail to understand he puts himself in a position to get that lucky, AND get paid off, so his implied odds are good for just about any hand he plays once he pisses off the table.

If things run even remotely in his favor, he'll leave with an extra stack or 2

Originally Posted by Fnord

When I started playing hold'em I was fixated by charts, what I should play from where and how.
Then I started digging into why those charts are the way they are. What hands play well in what circumstances and the thought process behind them. Pre-flop became almost robotic.
After I while I took it a step further and discovered that pre-flop flows into post-flop. A raise vs a call can totally change the post-flop texture of a hand. Passing on a little value on one street can setup-up greater value on the next street.
Finally I really got it. The most fucking important part of pre-flop is the value of your hand relative to the position + hand strength + post-flop skill of those that have already entered the pot and those likely to enter it. Hence, as we gain information the charts becomes less relevent and the calculations increasingly murky.

Good post this - worth a bump.

On cold calling:

To call a raise, you need a hand that will stand to make a good deal of money post flop if you hit. Because of this, hands like AJo and KQo lose a great deal of value. You are often dominated, and if you aren't, you will rarely win a large pot. Your opponent sees the Ace on board as well as you do, and if he has QQ, shouldn't be paying off a cold caller with AJ.
That being said, you do have position, and position is HUGE in No Limit. You can often take away pots that you missed, based on your opponent being scared to play a big pot.
Think of a situation where both players have the same hand and are guaranteed a split. Often it is the most agressive player who takes the pot. You don't have to even have the same hand. Most hands miss the flop. When two mediocre hands are both in a pot, the strongest player is the one pulling in the chips.
This concept flows into another one known as "floating." Floating is the act of calling a bet on the flop with the intention of taking the pot away on the turn. Since you are often bluffing, your specific cards don't matter. The float starts preflop though. What are the best hands to float? The ones with the highest preflop implied odds. Suited hands have a lot of value over offsuit hands, because the small percentage of the time that you make a flush, you win a relatively large pot. Connecting hands are almost more important (note I said "almost") because when you make a straight, it is often hidden, and is usually paid off, as opposed to flushes, since again, your opponent can see the third flush card as well as you can.
Because of this effect of implied odds, I will often throw away a hand like AQo depending on the raiser, but I may call with JTs.
Finally, many people understand the importance of the small pairs. A set is the most hidden hand in holdem. Because of this you will often win huge pots with them. You are 8 to 1 to flop a set. Thus the general advice is to call a preflop raise as long as both you and your opponent have 10x the size of the raise in your stacks. This is not bad advice, but your sets don't play for stacks every time. It is rare to have an opponent who raised with KQo drop his stack unimproved, or a player with JJ go to the felt on an A high board. I would recommend upping the stack size requirement closer to 20. *except against a player who is likely to push the flop regardless of what comes. With experience you learn to recognize this player, and can even call closer to the 8 to 1 requirement.

Great thread.

This effect is also true for my raising range against limpers. While it doesn't shrink to QQ+, it does cutout all but the big suited broadway cards and probably TT+. Outside this range, all hands that I would have raised with given my position become limping hands. I am now playing for pot odds.

So you don't ever raise hands like 77-99 and medium suited connectors in an attempt to take down the limpers money?

HJ- Suited connectors, JTo+,J9s+,KTs+,A8s+,ATo, any pair
SB- *Same as HJ

Why do you play bad hands out of position? A lot of what I have studied suggests that you should have a range in the small blind almost as tight as UTG. What are your thoughts here?

renton is right. there is no point raising with marginal hands in the small blind when it is folded to you. You are out of position for the rest of the hand and are only going to be called by the better hands. You also have a good chance of being outplayed by a good player in the BB. You are better off folding your marginal hands in the small blind.

you don't have pot odds, you don't really build much image. and when you are called you are in a really bad spot. if your continuation bet is called on the flop you have most likely lost the hand.

Nice post. I have a couple thoughts:

One thing about low PPs. You mention upping your requirement to 20x. But even if you aren't always playing for stacks, you still have a hand you can use effectively post flop. I feel confident floating with PPs because you can pressure a an opp who misses enough to fold - and if they don't you possibly hit on the turn or river (if it gets there). You can take down some nice pots this way. That's why I adhere to 10x against most opps. I only float against the right people though (or if I'm on tilt).

Since I joined this site, I've seen a common theme - Aggression. Whether you are tight or loose - aggression is good. However, you have to ease into things and only play how you are comfortable. Newer players should probably transition from a tight-agressive style into a looser (not overly loose until you are ready) very aggressive style. If you try to get there too fast it most likely won't work. I play shorthanded and when I try to play as loose and aggressive as successful players like Gabe and others I don't do as well. Over time I'm evolving there. They didn't get there overnight either. Demi's chart is loose-aggressive. I wouldn't do well using it right now. The main reason is post flop play. I'm decent (maybe slightly adequate is a better description) post flop. But good players can handle me often. You have to have great post flop skills to play like this. If you are a new or even middle of the road - don't leap into this. Gradually add elements into your game. There are still very successful players that play tight and clean up even at higher levels as well. So, LAGG isn't the final evolution of the poker player.