Practice observations

I'm trying to breakdown learning by observing tables. With so much info. to gain in a single hand, I'm want to practice on gathering reads piece by piece. For instance pre flop I will look at who is aggressive, passive, etc. Any ideas on how to do this, I mean breakdown each piece of info until it become second nature.

I'm a beginner as well and have also been trying to develop my reads on people. I honestly feel as though at the micro stakes I can pretty much put a certain players on a RANGE of cards not so much as on any particular HAND. So this is how I do it, from noob to noob - I'm sure it's the complete opposite a pro does it, but hey it works for me. Because I'm OCD I like to do everything in list format, and then explain everything after...so here goes:

Since you know jack **** about them within the first couple hands, assume they play ABC poker and have a very small range of cards. In other words, respect their plays

PRE-FLOP
* What is their stack size - Are they short stacked, deep stacked, or somewhere in between. If they are short stacked they are more inclined to move in with hands like AK, AQ, or any Pair if super short stacked. Short stackers will also tend to play tighter.
* What is their position - Although I noticed that in 25NL many players don't give a f*** about position, others do. If they raise from EP shorten the range, if they raise from CO or Button widen the range.
* What was the action before the player - Did the player limp in first. Did the player limp in after other limpers. Did the player raise, 3-Bet, etc. If a player limped but called a single raise he may have low pockets, if he called the raise after a bunch of other callers he may also have connectors. If the player called a 3-Bet he may have strong pockets, A-K. If he called the 3-Bet after another caller he may have strong connectors as well.

FLOP
* What was the players action before the Flop - Now that you have the player on the range, take a look at the board. It's incredibly important to NOT CHANGE THE RANGE YOU INITIALLY PUT HIM ON. So if you and another player are in the pot after you 3-bet and he called, don't let a board like 3-4-5 scare you. If I have K's for example I'm going to raise and if you raise me I'm pushing all in if you actually called me with 6-7 before the flop I'm sure i'll get my money back from you later on. I try to NEVER widen the range after the flop...EVER. If I put you on a range I'm not letting anything on the board deter me from my next actions (unless of course the board hit the range I thought you had).

* Everything from before the flop applies here as well - Did he raise and is raising again? Did he raise and is suddenly slowing down. Does he have position on you, etc narrow the range based on evidence.

TURN and RIVER
* Always keep narrowing the range until you feel comfortable with putting him on a few hands - Be realistic, just because a second Q falls on the river doesn't mean that all of a sudden he doesn't have the Q you initially put him on...be careful I used to do that all the time.

Finally if it goes to showdown keep whatever you see in mind and use that to modify his starting range for the next hand. And keep working on this process until you can put a player on a range pre-flop with confidence...

Or I could be talking out of my ass and now you will go bankrupt. I am a noob also after all...

Why is a noob/beginner giving/getting observations on 25nl tables.? I'm not sayng that theres anything wrong with your advice , just wondering why you didn't start lower down where your learning will come cheaper.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

Why is a noob/beginner giving/getting observations on 25nl tables.? I'm not sayng that theres anything wrong with your advice , just wondering why you didn't start lower down where your learning will come cheaper.

[x] no brm
[x] only plays 1 table
[x] luckboxing/absence of downswing

To the OP, why not just play and do the same thing? 2 birds, one stone? You have to get in there and play.

Reads only get you so far when your opponents never fold, so bluff raising when you think someone's weak based off a read is spew without the other half of the equation, which is do they have a fold button installed. A HUD can answer most of these questions for you, and the rest can be filled in with note taking and general assumptions, like how much they bought in for, their username, avatar, did they post early, etc.

Na I deposited 300, signed up for rakeback through Spoon, and will stay at 25NL until I drop to 175ish and move to 10NL. It's not like I just started playing yesterday, the entire time I was in Iraq I played every second I could...unfortunately then I didnt have proper brm and played Limit a lot but I know I'm ok at 25NL.

And I don't understand what's up with the "[x] only plays one table". My goal right now isn't to multitable and make money, it's to single table and make sure I can beat the game first :/ And I'm pretty sure I'm not luckboxing, I rarely move-in pre-flop, unless its against a shortstacker or a crazy player who's pushing people around. If I know I have the other player beat I will try to win his stack if I feel he also has a good hand, and I dont typically tilt...because now I actually have an OK bankroll. Actually I was a little underrolled when I first deposited but I mean NOW I'm ok lol

Originally Posted by IAmFilipe

Na I deposited 300, signed up for rakeback through Spoon, and will stay at 25NL until I drop to 175ish and move to 10NL. It's not like I just started playing yesterday, the entire time I was in Iraq I played every second I could...unfortunately then I didnt have proper brm and played Limit a lot but I know I'm ok at 25NL.

And I don't understand what's up with the "[x] only plays one table". My goal right now isn't to multitable and make money, it's to single table and make sure I can beat the game first :/ And I'm pretty sure I'm not luckboxing, I rarely move-in pre-flop, unless its against a shortstacker or a crazy player who's pushing people around. If I know I have the other player beat I will try to win his stack if I feel he also has a good hand, and I dont typically tilt...because now I actually have an OK bankroll. Actually I was a little underrolled when I first deposited but I mean NOW I'm ok lol

LMAO .......why don't you try reading the bankroll management articles and then come back and convince us that this is true. Losing over $xxx so far with a steady downslope to your graph is no evidence of you beating the stake and your comments in the second paragraph don't show that you are ready for 25nl.

Look at PTR's grader. you are too loose preflop, too passive on the flop , too aggressive on the turn and showdown far too often , you need to learn when to fold.

edit . amount lost edited since its only relevent to Felipe and I think has surprised him.

No I did it with Spoon the other day that's why I made the deposit. Thanks for the advice man, I don't wanna steal the thread I sent you a PM.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

LMAO .......why don't you try reading the bankroll management articles and then come back and convince us that this is true. Losing over $xxx so far with a steady downslope to your graph is no evidence of you beating the stake and your comments in the second paragraph don't show that you are ready for 25nl.

Look at PTR's grader. you are too loose preflop, too passive on the flop , too aggressive on the turn and showdown far too often , you need to learn when to fold.

edit . amount lost edited since its only relevent to Felipe and I think has surprised him.

If he says he's rolled for it what's the problem? just because you did everything by the book doesn't mean no one else has the right to do it another way. Besides, I'm sure he won't be living in a cardboard box because he lost a few 25NL games. It's still a micro stake.

Originally Posted by tyrn

If he says he's rolled for it what's the problem? just because you did everything by the book doesn't mean no one else has the right to do it another way. Besides, I'm sure he won't be living in a cardboard box because he lost a few 25NL games. It's still a micro stake.

obviously you didn't bother looking up his stats on PTR .When you have , would you still honestly recommend that he stays playing 25nl on a much smaller bankroll than is normally recommended. The info has opened his eyes to the actual amount and suprised him.

The PMs he sent me show that he appreciates the info and not resents it.

I do appreciate it like I said. I played horribly in Iraq (which the amount was a complete eye opener once Keith pointed it out), opened up a new account in AP at 25NL under the name FILIPEIAM with a slightly underrolled bankroll - $300, went up then lost 2 buy ins both because of tilt, NOT because of poor play. I realized that although I'm still convinced that I can play at 25NL not the way I played uner IAMFILIPE but under how I'm playing now that I need to learn two things - multitabling and poker psychology, specifically keeping my cool. So I dropped down under FILIPEIAM (note) to 2NL and practiced just that, steadily working my way up. I'll do it until I win my 2 buy ins back, then jump back to 25NL hopefully with better discipline.

I F***** up, I admitted it and even thanked those who deserved it. Honestly however, this thread was about giving the dude advice no one did for 3 days so I figured hey lemme give it a shot he's new like I am. I appreciate the criticism but I would prefer maybe correcting my advice where flawed, so I learn something and the OP does as well :/

I'm sorry , but looked at the losing sessions you had on new account and you bet/called a big turn raise on a 3 flush ,4 card gutshot straight board with overcards AQo. thats just spew.

then you called down with second pair on a 4 straight gutshot board. You aren't playing fully stacked.

another hand you flat a min raise on the button,flop a straight on a flush draw board, min raise the flop tiny bet, small raise to a turn tiny bet , the 3rd diamond fell on river villain checked , you bet , he shoved and you called . his line screamed flush draw and you paid him off. The bet sizing was awful and you let him draw cheaply . Drop down and beat lower levels then move up , the way you are playing you are going to lose a lot staying at 25nl and you will be saying how unlucky you were, without realising that your bad play/poor bet sizing priced him in.

lol yea that's when I said I was on tilt...I actually remember those specific hands! The cat literally had an 80% VPIP and I just couldn't believe he was calling me through with 94s. There was no point in raising against him as he would call whatever, he called all ins with Q3s preflop if you look at the hands. I didn't know how to handle the situation and I really couldn't just say "Oh he got me again" considering the all the bluffs he has shown before.

I'm sure you mean well, but its starting to feel like your just being a dick. I DID say I dropped 2NL, and I DID say why I dropped to 2NL. I don't 3-bet enough, I don't fold my hands against calling stations enough, and I try to bluff at fish. These are things I noted about myself that I need to fix.

To reiterate I dropped to 2NL because I understood I need to fix my play a little - ok, a lot. Thanks.

Don't worry bout people giving you a hard time, this place is often heated due to loads of intelligent people all disagreeing about things. You do suck horribly at poker, but that's cool, most people in here do, that's why we're here. Honestly, if you just accept you sucked horribly and that you actually have no idea yet as to whether you can beat 25NL then you'll be fine and anything anyone says will bounce off you. Post hands here and get into the IRC channel and post hands there and you'll soon begin to both relaise just how bad you are at poker and how much you can improve by getting people's help; this is the first step to pwnage.

Good luck to both you and OP.

don't worry , I'm not picking on you to make you feel a dick , or to make myself look great. You have an EGO problem, thinking that you are a better poker player than you really are.

for example its easy to pick on peoples losing hands. Take this winning hand though http://www.pokertableratings.com/han...661/8995889320 . full house vs full house and only a meagre pot. If you are going to be check calling all the time you price your opponents in to suck out on you and let them check behind and take a free acard to do it.It kills your winrate if you don't get value from your monsters. You should have been playing that hand for stacks , not peanuts.I think one of the players at the table is an FTR reg (Boog69) maybe he picked up some reads that will help you.

You also had QQ, called a 3 bet pre then checked called down against Boogs AdKd and let him check behind on the river when his flush draw missed.It eems to be a common trait on the hands you played , you go all passive and lose lots of value. at 2nl you can get away with it , at 25nl it will cost you dearly.

Originally Posted by iamfilipe

So I dropped down under FILIPEIAM (note) to 2NL and practiced just that, steadily working my way up. I'll do it until I win my 2 buy ins back, then jump back to 25NL hopefully with better discipline.

Not to be condescending or anything, but a better plan would be to: win your 50$ back and move up to 5NL, win 20-30 buy-ins there and move up to 10NL, win 25-30 buy-ins there and move "back" to 25NL. You will have played at least 50-60k hands by that point and will be immeasurably better at poker.

I don't think there is a 5nl at cereus . He has to jump straight to 10nl ....but that means he ought to win more at 10 nl.

HAHA carroters nice man, I do suck I'm going to just stop trying to sugarcoat it because as Keith said I have a big ego...I won't lie. Hopefully by taking Penneywize's advice I can learn to set my ego aside. I'm sure you guys have all been there, and if not then I'm just a douche

haha keith nice wording with the "I'm not picking on you to make you feel a dick , or to make myself look great" totally reversed it on me but that made me laugh out loud

Onto 2NL then...

Good luck man, just changing your outlook on the game - and subsequently, your approach to learning - has likely set you on the right track. Better now than in two years donking off buy-ins like a HUGE portion of the online player base.

Now you just have to follow through. Study, review, watch videos, put in volume. Get objective analysis of your play from mor eexperienced players. Rinse and repeat. GL sir.