pot odds clarification

ok, me and my friend have been arguing about what "pot odds" truly is, b/c we both have seen examples defending our point of view. here is an example.


Say I have A10 of diamonds and the board shows K94, two diamonds. If the pot is 6 dollars, and my opponet bets 4 dollars, do i calculate the pot odds by saying I have to call 4 dollars to win a 14 dollar pot (my call + his bet + pot), or is it calling 4 dollats to win a 10 dollar pot (his bet +pot)?

Well you calculate it this way:

you risk 4 dollars to make TEN DOLLAR PROFIT

do you mean 4/10 = 40%, which is more than the 30% chance or so that i make the flush?

If the pot is 16 dollars, and somebody raises 4 dollars then it costs you four dollars to see a twenty dollar pot, not twenty four. Don't count your own bet as part of the pot with pot odds, but you do count your previous bets as part of the pot.

If you bet $1, and you are then raised to $2, count your previous $1 bet as part of the pot... this is why minraising can sometimes give you insane pot odds.

So far I've read no replies that help.

In your situation, when deciding whether to call, you DO take into account the amount of money that you will be putting in by calling. In the above example, you will be be putting in $4 to win $14. This is 4/14 which is about 2/7 or .23%. Even if you can guarantee yourself that there will not be a bet on the turn, you cannot call this bet.

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

So far I've read no replies that help.

In your situation, when deciding whether to call, you DO take into account the amount of money that you will be putting in by calling. In the above example, you will be be putting in $4 to win $14. This is 4/14 which is about 2/7 or .23%. Even if you can guarantee yourself that there will not be a bet on the turn, you cannot call this bet.

First of all, these are pots ODDS

2 to 5
winning is a little better than 1 to 2 which equals 2 to 4 which is better than 2 to 5

if you're going the POT PERCENT way
it's 28.6%

the win % is 35%


So call if you think that he will call you down as often at the river if you make your flush as he will bet at the turn if you don't make it by the turn

To answer your question without being as confusing as all the previous posts...

(Your Call)/(Your Call + His Bet + Pot before his bet) must be less than your percent chance of hitting your hand.


The real life situation is more complicated, because theres still more betting to come after you make that calculation and decide whether to call or not...If you make your hand on the turn will you be able to make him pay you? This essentially increases the denominator of the calculation by adding another number "+ How much more you think you can get put into the pot" . Thats implied odds.

Thats implied odds.

Thats what I love about low limit... limping with pairs to catch sets is so much fun =)

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

So far I've read no replies that help.

In your situation, when deciding whether to call, you DO take into account the amount of money that you will be putting in by calling. In the above example, you will be be putting in $4 to win $14. This is 4/14 which is about 2/7 or .23%. Even if you can guarantee yourself that there will not be a bet on the turn, you cannot call this bet.

First of all, these are pots ODDS

2 to 5
winning is a little better than 1 to 2 which equals 2 to 4 which is better than 2 to 5

if you're going the POT PERCENT way
it's 28.6%

the win % is 35%


So call if you think that he will call you down as often at the river if you make your flush as he will bet at the turn if you don't make it by the turn

This is incorrect.

If there is a $6 pot, and your opponent bets $4, you are putting in $4 to win a $10 pot, not a $14 pot. Don't count the money you will be putting in if you call.

Secondly, if you WERE calling $4 into a $14 pot, the odds would be 4:14, very much different then 4/14.

Third, 4/14 or 2/7 = 28.6%, not .23%.

- Lukie

Posted by someone:
"(Your Call)/(Your Call + His Bet + Pot before his bet) must be less than your percent chance of hitting your hand."


Uh, no?

DONT count what you have to call when you calcluate pot odds. if the pot is $3 and he bets $2, then the POT IS $5, NOT $7, and your pot odds are 2:5 to call his bet.

Think about it this way. If I'm heads up in a hand with another guy, and I flop top pair, I dont want to give him pot odds to call see the turn and river with a flush draw right? If you count what you have to call as part of the pot then this is how it works out:
Say I have AK and raise $5 preflop. I get one caller, who has say 9c Tc, making the pot ~$10.
The flop comes Ah 6c 3c and I bet $10, which is the pot size. Now if he counts his call of my bet as part of the pot that means:
my preflop raise = $5
**his preflop call = $5
****my flop bet = $10
****his flop call = $10 <-- wrong!
***************+____
*****************$30= 3:1 odds, which means he would have odds to call my pot bet on the flop with his flush draw??? Obviously this is wrong, as in heads up situations we bet the pot on the flop to PUSH OUT DRAWS, not give them proper odds.

So DONT COUNT THE CALL as part of the pot, because until you call, its not acutally in the pot yet, duh?

my $0.02.

It depends on whether you are working with percentages or odds.

Pot Odds: 10:4 or 2.5:1, Odds of making the flush: 4:1 (one card)
Percentages: 4/14= 28.6%, Probability(Percentage) of making the flush: 1/5 = 20%

You just have to be consistent.

Originally Posted by arkana

It depends on whether you are working with percentages or odds.

Pot Odds: 10:4 or 2.5:1, Odds of making the flush: 4:1 (one card)
Percentages: 4/14= 28.6%, Probability(Percentage) of making the flush: 1/5 = 20%

You just have to be consistent.

Thanks Arkana. That clears it up for me. I was confused for a bit.

Classic problem of one person looking at things in odds form and the other looking at things as a percentage.

Both PokerPatNEU and underminedsk are correct (except for the parts where underminedsk says Pat is wrong).
With $10 in the pot pre-flop, a $10 post flop bet will give the opponent 2:1 odds, he would need a 33% chance to win to call.
He's putting in one to get 2 (hence 2:1 odds), and he needs to win at least 10/(10+10+10) = 1/3 of the time.

lol lol and lol @ this thread.
My math stinks so i do this.
If i have to call a bet where the bet i will call is a smaller percentage of the whole pot (at that point) than my chances of hitting my draw then i call (eg i call a bet of 10% of the total pot where my chance of hitting my draw is 35%. If the bet is 50% i dont). If it aint i dont. I make exceptions though when the pot is large as winning is often worth the risk sometimes. In a small pot that isnt worth much i wont call the draw wothout this.
Whether this is strictly 'pot odds' i very much doubt but i keep to it to give me a good idea of how much money i should be using to call. My math sucks and this is simpleer

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

good example of pot odds:

I had been killing 2/4 six max and decided to step up the limits and go sit at 5/10 with 200 bones....double up my very first hand with KK and then steal a few blinds and rep a few flops....sittin on about 550 when I catch this hand (full table)

Im on the bb and catch 6/4os (notice I said 'catch' because 6/4os is a fk'n monster in my book :P )

so the action goes...limp, limp , limp, limp, fold, limp , limp mini raise

so when it gets to me I have to call another 10 bucks to see the flop ...normally I would muck 6/4os of course into any raise...but with 7 in the pot it made the call a no brainer.

So everybody else calls the mini raise and before the cards are dealt there is a $140.00 bones in the pot

FLOP 6/6/4...ohhh yea come to papa. I knew I was gonna get paid off

I check....a couple other checks and then some guy leads out with a pot sized bet !!....so I'm lickin my chops when lo' and behold before it gets to me there is a RAISER !! I smooth call the raise saving my remaining 300 for the turn certain that there will be more action.

Sure enough raiser # 1 goes all in...raiser # 2 calls and I call off the rest of my stack

A/4 , KK and me :P

without proper pot odds I never would have played the hand in the 1st place and it ended up being a $1300.00 pot...with 6/4os limping in from the small blind

thats no limit baby

LOL this really doesnt have much to do with this thread does it?

But anyway vnh, you must have gized your pants when you saw that flop with such a huge multiway pot.

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

so when it gets to me I have to call another 10 bucks to see the flop ...normally I would muck 6/4os of course into any raise...but with 7 in the pot it made the call a no brainer.

UNLESS someone limped a monster preflop waiting to push over top of a raise, then you could be throwing $10 away because you have to fold to another larger reraise. Usually won't happen , but it's something to be aware of, especially from the first limper.

Nice pot btw

I believe Rippy's post was entirely about pot odds...

What is happening to this thread?

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It is a damn good story. :P That is not in dispute.

But your post was definitely about implied odds, not pot odds.

God damn it. Somewhere along the way I started calculating it for a ten dollar pot and 4 dollar bet.

DAMN YOU STUPID PEOPLE

with a 6 dollar pot
you're getting 10 to 4 odds
2.5-1
flush probablity is slightly better than 3-1
if you don't have implied odds better than the chance of the guy leading out on the turn if you miss, fold