Pot odds

Hi everyone, 1st up please xcuse my name, but it's the name I play under on VC so I thought i would be consistent (yes it was a really stupid choice for a name, i know that now!!!)
I'll give you a scenario:
After the flop I have 4 to a flush, the pot is a $1, the raise $1, should I call?
I think I shld as the chances of hitting a flush at that point is 1.86 to 1 , and the pot is offering me 2 to 1, a lot of ppl r trying to tell me the chance of the next card making the flush is 4.22 to 1(which is correct but IMHO not relevant) and that I need those odds to call. Surely this is'nt right??

Assuming, I am right would I therefore be right in thinking that if I was playing in a PL game it is impossible to give a drawing hand the wrong pot odds to call b4 the turn?

Please feel free to delete this post if you feel it is stupid beyond belief

What people are telling you is correct and very relevent. But due to the effect of implied odds (bets you may win in the future after/if you hit your flush) I like to get better then 3 to 1 from the pot to chase a flush.

Thanks for your reply but surely it's the overall odds that are important at that point? there r 2 cards to come either of which could make the flush. Therefore the odds of making a flush are 1.86 to 1? I agree the odds of making it next card are 4.22 to 1 but surely u r just looking to make the flush at some point and therefore surely the overall figure should apply??

I appreciate the fact that there r a lot of other considerations but I wanted to keep this to pure pot odds. I need to understand this properly before getting involved with implied odds!!!

Only if all the money is in the middle on the flop. What if you call on the flop (because your getting odds over two cards like you say), you flush card doesn't come, and then you face a huge bet on the turn card that you cant call. In that case you called on the flop on the basis of seeing two more cards but you only got to see one.

Its better to just go card by card unless you know that your opponent will only bet small on the turn card.

OK I see what u r saying. In the scenario i laid out I would have called a pre river pot of 4.11 to 1.
However the main reason I'm asking is not from my calling point of view but from the poin of view of raising when I'm trying to get rid of the drawing hands. (I just thought it was easier to phrase it this way round!!) I quite often do a pot size raise to get rid of the drawers, always assuming it was more than enough, I was often suprised that ppl would continue to call on draws. But if u are working on the example I give , then I am actually giving them pot odds and the call is right. I would actually have to raise more than the pot to make it a bad bet.

With only you one other guy in the hand, if you bet 1/2 the pot the other guy has bad odds to chase going to the turn card. 1/2 pot is enough.

Sexy, do you play on Fortune?
HU 1/2 pot is enough to give bad odds. But like the sticky says, you can't make someone fold. You can only encourage it. If they call with a flush draw then you are making money off them in the long run (if not this hand).

EricE do you play on fortune?

Originally Posted by sexygurl69

I would actually have to raise more than the pot to make it a bad bet.

It is a rare hand that you would have to raise more than the pot to give them bad pot odds. If you bet the pot, then the opponent is getting 2:1 for his call. Excluding implied odds, the next card would have to put him ahead 1 time out of 3 to make that a good bet. In turn, that means 1/3 of the remaining cards must be 'outs' for him. As there are roughly 45-47 unknown cards in the deck, that means he would need 15 outs. Most hands that are behind do not have 15 outs that will put them ahead. There are a few hands that do, like having both a OESD and a flush draw.

While there are very special trick hands that have an enormous number of outs, about the highest you will normally encounter is 21. That is usually from having an OESD + flush draw + over cards to a low pair. Like this:

Player 1:
Player 2: :Qh: :Kh:

Board: :Th: :Jh:

Player 2 is behind but has 2 outs to the straight flush + 7 outs to the flush + 6 outs to the straight + 6 outs to a higher pair for 21 outs. At that point, almost half the cards in the deck will complete Player 2's hand. Thus he needs just a little better than 1:1 odds to justify a call. Which means that, unless the stacks are ASTRONOMICALLY deep, Player 1 cannot make the pot odds bad enough that Player 2 could not justify a call.

If, after the flop, you need to bet more than the pot to give the opponent bad odds, you should proceed very carefully. Because, if he calls, you will need to bet more than the pot on the turn to give him bad odds there as well. That means you have put a lot of money in the pot protecting a vulnerable hand. That will lead to high variance which is a bankroll management nightmare for beginning players. It might be better to get the player to call your large bets in a latter hand where he thinks he has a lot of outs, but does not.

As an example:

You: :Ah:
Villian: :Kh: :Qc:

Board: :Th: :Jh:

Villian may think he has 9 outs to the flush and 6 more to the straight and may even think he has 6 more to his over cards, but they are all dead outs because you have the nut flush. Villian is drawing dead in fact.

1st up thanx to everyone who has taken the time to reply to my post, it's much appreciated.
Still a little confused, iRICHeyes, u said u like to get better than 3 to 1 from the pot if drawing to a flush, how much better?, only asking because in another post u said that a half pot raise(which would give your enemy 3 to 1) should be enough to get rid of the drawers, not trying to be clever but these comments seem to be a little contra.
In my (very limited) xperience I'm still getting drawing callers with a pot size raise!!
Of course all this assumes that your enemy has an understanding of pot odds and knows when he's getting a bad deal. I suspect that at the level that I play at knowledge of pot odds is not that great. To use myself as an example I started playing in September and have only just got around to trying to find out what it means!!!!

oops, forgot to say I think this is a great site, well done to all involved.

Also forgot to reply to eric e, I only play on VC at the moment. As I understand it VC is part of the tribeca network and there are many skins which use the network. I have no idea if fortune is one of them.

1/2 pot betting gives you bad pot odds to chase for a flush. However if the enemy is willing to give you their whole stack when you hit the flush then it is worth chasing for worse odds than this. This is called implied odds. iRICHeyes knows his opponents will probably pay him off if he hits the flush so he is willing to chase himself, however he is a savvy player and will not pay off his opponents when they hit a flush against him, so they do not have the same implied odds to chase.

I wont go as far as 3:1 to chase unless i think the enemy is such a complete donkey that he will pay me off. Most of the time i settle for 5:1 and only call for implied odds if it is too close for me to try working it out in my head. I also accept less than 5:1 if it is a big multiway pot and i think there a good chance that someone else will catch a big second best hand when i make the nuts.
If it is heads up then it is less likely that he will pay me off any extra (since his 1/2-1/4 pot bet suggests weakness) so i will probably just fold unless i am getting good enough pot odds.

OK, I'm sure this was just a coincidence but I'll share it with you anyway Congratulations to 'sexygurl69', who won $90.18 in '$2 No Limit' tournament.
my 1st ever mtt win!!, been 2nd twice b4 but now I have finally popped my cherry!!! grinning from ear 2 ear, thanx again!!

big Congratz!

nice one



goodluck for many more in the future