pocket jacks and tens pre-flop

Curious what your thinking is on playing pocket jacks or tens pre-flop in full ring.

Do you play them more like QQ or 88? To date I have done the following...

when i'm opening I:
* usually raise them (cos i don't like to open limp much)
* call a small-ish re-raise, fold to a re-raise push

When I'm not opening I:
* almost always raise over limpers much the same as with kk/aa/ak vs occasionally limp along with them
* sometimes call one raise (+-limpers) up to about 5bb-ish, usually re-raise, pretty much never fold.
* 4-bet sometimes , call (sometimes) or fold (too infrequently) to a raise then 3-bet.
* very occasionally push - read dependent as much as anything

Thoughts? am I placing too much value on these hands pre-flop (i suspect yes)? tens are my only losing pair over this sample... think I'm going to start playing them more like 5s

From PT at $5NL and $10NL
tens: 75 times 96-74-W$WSF = 48%, -1.85BB/hand
jacks: 95 times 94-76-W$WSF =63% +0.43 BB/hand.

Think I'm raising far too liberally with these hands....

I play JJ a lil weaker than QQ and a lil stronger than TT, and I play TT a lil stronger than 99.

Just as your positional stats rise gradually as you get closer to the button, hands should do the same as you go towards AA.

Sorry for the simple response, but I think it makes sense.

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

I play JJ a lil weaker than QQ and a lil stronger than TT, and I play TT a lil stronger than 99.

i lol'ed

I think your real problem with them lies postflop and identifying the flops where you're clearly beat and other flops where you should be felting them as overpairs.

We're not playing tournament, we're 100bb deep (I'm assuming) the leaks from these hands are probably not found in your pre-flop play.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I think your real problem with them lies postflop and identifying the flops where you're clearly beat and other flops where you should be felting them as overpairs.

We're not playing tournament, we're 100bb deep (I'm assuming) the leaks from these hands are probably not found in your pre-flop play.

Could be right about my problem being post-flop cos yep, I'm playing 100BB + deep most of the time... I'm going to check some hands.
But, I suspect post-flop is ok, and big wins are nullified by the pre-flop raising the rest of the time...

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

I play JJ a lil weaker than QQ and a lil stronger than TT, and I play TT a lil stronger than 99.

makes sense

Originally Posted by daven

Could be right about my problem being post-flop cos yep, I'm playing 100BB + deep most of the time... I'm going to check some hands.
But, I suspect post-flop is ok, and big wins are nullified by the pre-flop raising the rest of the time...

3betting TT preflop can't make it a loser. the problem has to be post-flop. find some losing hands and analyze them. your sample size isn't very big either so don't worry about it too much yet.

following up with a c-betg on the wrong board with TT is a leak, 3 betting the wrong opponent with TT is a leak and cold calling 3bets (its a worthless as 22 to a 3bet in fr games, yet people still cold call 3bets with TT-QQ) is a leak.

ok, I looked at some hands. Looking through them I think I've got better as a player during the last few weeks and TT is unlikely to go on losing me as much as it has done. On a positive note, I don't think postflop is as bad as I had feared... some hands below
note - these were all from when I first started playing nl again after ages of fixed limit. Something to do with it being easier to clear a bonus, but I didn't have the bankroll to obey my bankroll rules so I was buying in with $3. I don't buy in with less than 100BB now...

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

3 betting the wrong opponent with TT is a leak and cold calling 3bets (its a worthless as 22 to a 3bet in fr games, yet people still cold call 3bets with TT-QQ) is a leak.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($4.76)
SB ($2.38)
BB ($4.43)
UTG ($5)
MP1 ($15.31)
Hero ($3.32)
CO ($4.89)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T, T.
UTG raises to $0.08, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.24, 4 folds, UTG raises to $1, Hero will be folding in future


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($1.87)
Button ($13.92)
Hero ($3.31)
BB ($3.53)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
UTG calls $0.04, Button raises to $0.2, Hero calls $0.18, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.87 (All-In), Button raises to $3.54, Hero is pretty stupid sometimes
although I was up against A9o and AKo so maybe i had a read at the time?

Okay, cardswise, you were a favourite against both hands PF (albeit a small one).
I can't see exactly what the pot was laying to you though.