playing well consistently

How do you play your A-game all the time?

By this I mean:
* laying down hands you know are beaten
* respecting pot odds
* only calling with implied odds if they really exist
* playing tight when necessary
* playing loose when necessary
* getting value rather than scaring people out of pots

I've been looking at my last few sessions very closely, it would be easy not to cos I can look at the overall result and simply feel smug that I'm up a few buy-ins. BUT, it should be more.

I don't mind badbeats, I mean, I hate them - but I know that for the 6/7 times I win when I'm 6/7 favourite, I have to lose once. So it's not really a badbeat in the grand scheme. And that's fine.

I do mind losing big pots that I've played badly. Two come to mind today. I 3-bet KK and the 40-0.4 (>100 hands) 4-bet. Three options - call and hope for the set, fold, push. Only the first two make sense (purely read and context, I was sitting there knowing "AA" but....) and I deserved to lose 90bb from my 250bb stack. And another, KQs in a crazy limped pot and KJJ flop it should be an easy fold to the check-raise push.

I think the difference between profit and BIG PROFIT is about sticking to the points at the top. (maybe others I've missed?)

My question is: HOW? Some of you must manage it... and I want to figure it out here at 25nl, even though I'm rolled for 50nl (and almost 100nl!)

Thoughts?

maniacal discipline.

bankroll size, i'm in the same boat. however, i used to have this kind of discipline, and now, am going through a little "life variance." i have forgotten how to get that discipline back.

i had turned into a bit of a "shove monkey" due to all the idiot cards people at low stakes are showing. but, all that has done is turn me into an undisciplined, overplaying spewtard at times.

its just constant focus, and self-discipline to adhere to ANY goal you set for yourself. it really is that simple. but, DAMN, its hard...lol.

To keep a mind running in its best shape you need to do the same for body. I play the best poker when I work out on a daily basis.

Once your mind is in top shape it's like anything else you want to be good at in life. Practice, coaching, more practice, etc. Consistency is a product of itself. Continue to show up at the table and you'll eventually get there.

play the odds, sometimes you have to make 'bad' looking decisions to profit the most.
The KK hand, id shove 100/100 times even if i know he has AA, its a bad decisions to fold.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

The KK hand, id shove 100/100 times even if i know he has AA

fish

Daven, it looks to me like before you created this thread you spent some time looking through my PT database and watching me play.

This is exactly how I've felt recently. If I wasn't such a dumbass half the time and actually did what I know I'm supposed to do I could already be playing a couple levels higher than I am (at 5NL-10NL now, depending on the tables).

The conclusion I came to is the same as what chopper said. My leak is poor discipline. I feel like I make the right decision a good majority of the time, but I lose my stacks with bad decisions often enough that the profits I am making are much smaller than they could be.

Besides bad in-game decisions, poor discipline is the cause of my other biggest leak....tourney's of any kind.

I suck at them. I know that. I have a hard time adjusting to the blinds/stack ratios and I plan on working on that later on. But I keep playing them because I find them more fun than the grind of a cash game. And of course because I suck and I play, I lose. Yet I can't make myself forget they are there. Most days I end up playing a SnG or two and losing the equivalent of a buyin or two for my cash game.

And I also have seen responses like bigred's a couple times recently. It kind of has me thinking of figuring out some sort of exercise routine. It's probably sad, but the only real exercise I've ever had was forced on me in PE class when I was in school...and that's been a while.

wait...did bigred just make a serious post?

no

I have the same problem with focus normally, however i have been good with it recently (though i still have the odd hand where i shout "WHY?" at myself immediately after trying to steal a pot when i know i shouldn't be, even before villain shoves, or after i make a bad call, even before villain shows a hand that beats me - it's sometimes followed by "...wow" when i win lol) and i feel this is why i've had a very good winrate recently, as well as some +ve variance.

I find it much easier to play well if i am not thinking about something else, or tired, or drunk, or playing too many tables, or trying to hit numerical targets (e.g. make $xxx in yyy hours).

Originally Posted by daven

* respecting pot odds
* only calling with implied odds if they really exist

At the donkstakes, if you find a player that follows these points, make a big note of him- he's a rare one.

Oh yeah, be sure to let me know- because I have yet to find one.

Originally Posted by bigslikk

Originally Posted by daven

* respecting pot odds
* only calling with implied odds if they really exist

At the donkstakes, if you find a player that follows these points, make a big note of him- he's a rare one.

Oh yeah, be sure to let me know- because I have yet to find one.

They don't exist and if they do they move up like instantly due to the horrendous play

Discipline is by far my biggest leak.

Play as if the rest of the guys on FTR are looking over your shoulder. Sometimes I'll even provide a running commentary on my own hands, like the guys who make the videos. Helps to keep you focussed on the optimum play. Also, make a resolution to post your worst plays here on FTR after the game - you know when you are about to make a really bad move and the prospect of having to own up to it on FTR may just allow you to fold.

Originally Posted by daven

How do you play your A-game all the time?

By this I mean:
* laying down hands you know are beaten
* respecting pot odds
* only calling with implied odds if they really exist
* playing tight when necessary
* playing loose when necessary
* getting value rather than scaring people out of pots

if you figure all that out please let me know...

here's some random tactics that help me:
-2 BI stop loss for the day
-a break if i'm tilted or tired
-every day: exercise and something fun that takes my mind off poker
-making videos or just vocalizing my thoughts
-this thread has other ideas

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

The KK hand, id shove 100/100 times even if i know he has AA

fish

In regards to this post.

All he needs is a king to win and both of them have a 2 outs to be guaranteed a win here. I would even go with Jacks just for that third jack on the turn I always get.

Odds are not with you, but just one king will change all of it.

Originally Posted by cbonus

Odds are not with you

Focus on this part of your post. From the few posts you've made, you seem very results oriented.

For people lacking discipline:

http://zenhabits.net/

Originally Posted by bigred

To keep a mind running in its best shape you need to do the same for body. I play the best poker when I work out on a daily basis.

Once your mind is in top shape it's like anything else you want to be good at in life. Practice, coaching, more practice, etc. Consistency is a product of itself. Continue to show up at the table and you'll eventually get there.

Agreed 100%, there is undeniably a meaningful connection between your body, your mind, and your confidence

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

if you figure all that out please let me know...

it seems that the simple act of writing about this has helped.

And that the consensus is that I should be fit and disciplined, and to imagine having to try explaining my play to a jury

more thoughts on this are slowly coming together...

Originally Posted by cbonus

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

The KK hand, id shove 100/100 times even if i know he has AA

fish

In regards to this post.

All he needs is a king to win and both of them have a 2 outs to be guaranteed a win here. I would even go with Jacks just for that third jack on the turn I always get.

Odds are not with you, but just one king will change all of it.

Start with this part then stop.

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

I feel like I make the right decision a good majority of the time, but I lose my stacks with bad decisions often enough that the profits I am making are much smaller than they could be.

me too. i gotta find a better way to deal with tilt. i play well until that suckout. and then it hits the fan.

mmm...chocolate covered espresso beans.

And it's back to this damn thread again!

I've been playing well almost all month...until yesterday.

Part of my problem is that, playing the microstakes, I can't seem to help but to try to get tricky on the other players. Every time I do it, it backfires.

For example, I was against one other player in a pot, there was an open ended straight draw on the board after the turn. I didn't have a whole lot of time with this other player, but he's given me the impression that he's a fairly good player (for this level at least) who can fold if he thinks he might be beat. So I bet the turn a smallish amount, like I might if I wanted a call (repping the straight, right?), the river pairs the board, but I was so caught up in my "fancy play" that I didn't pay much attention and overbet the pot on the river (which I've been doing now and then with very good hands and it seems to have worked well so far)...he calls with a boat.

My word of advice after that hand: Don't bluff that you have a straight when the other player has a boat. It probably won't work out well.

Then at another table I suffer a couple nasty suckouts (one for two buyins, flopped nut straight and he hit flush on river). Now I can't complain much about those as I did make them pay out their asses to draw out, and they just got lucky these times, but it still had quite the negative effect on my roll (and my play, though I didn't yet realize it)

Then I find an ideal table, chick on my left is drunk, having a great time chatting it up with everyone, pushing very frequently PF w/ bad hands, going waaaay too far with shit hands, and continuously reloading. So I play my "wait for a big hand" game, and only call the PF pushes w/ hands that are obviously ahead of her range. While I'm waiting to take a stack from her I'm doing reasonably well against the other players. Only twice did I get the chance to go against drunk chick and of course both times her low cards paired and I left my stacks with her.

All in all, other than the badly timed bluff (or just plain bad bluff) I didn't do that bad, but by the end of the day I was down about 6 buyins, enough to send me back down a level.

Now so far I know this sounds like a bad beat post. That wasn't the purpose, though it was a bit of a rant. But, now to my points.

First, I realized that playing w/ 20-25 buyins is too little for me. I felt like I was pwning the micros enough that I could get by with being a little more aggressive BR management than some, but I'm going to be more of a BR nit after this.

Second, although I should generally stay at the tables where people are paying way too much too draw out on me, but I need to get better at recognizing when I'm on tilt and be willing to leave a good table if I'm not playing my best.

Third, I think I need to print up the newbie circle of death and tape it to my monitor. This is the second time I've gone from "microstakes poker god" to "complete spewtard donk" in the course of a couple thousand hands. I can't handle doing this too many more times. It takes too much out of me mentally.

So, after that, I'm back down to 2nl for now (and for the last time if I can help it). I'm going to grind here until I get to $210 ( I've been buying in for default $6 at 5nl, this would give me 30 buyins, and then I'll grind 5nl until I hit $350 (going to work my way up to having more buyins at each level than I required at the previous level).

Also, today when I get to work today I'm going to figure out how to do one of those operations/graph signatures. I am also going to start posting at least 5 hands a week. Now and then I run into hands that, when I'm in them, I think to myself "I need to post this one" but I never do it. If I can set a routine of posting them regularly, maybe I'll get around to asking some of the questions I've meant to ask.

Then, above all...DON'T GET TRICKY! DON'T OUTRIGHT BLUFF! Just play straightforward. Look for sets or better. AND STOP BEING A FUCKIN IDIOT!!

After all that, I do have one question (though any advice is always welcome). Is there a way to set something like a bookmark for certain hands in PT? This way I can keep track of hands I want to post, as well as keep track of hands that remind me not to be stupid.

Wow, subtle tilt. Hate that. Good luck sorting it out.

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

So, after that, I'm back down to 2nl for now (and for the last time if I can help it). I'm going to grind here until I get to $210 ( I've been buying in for default $6 at 5nl, this would give me 30 buyins, and then I'll grind 5nl until I hit $350 (going to work my way up to having more buyins at each level than I required at the previous level).

see bankitdrew's ideas on roll/stakes in the FullRing br thread ("screw bankroll management")

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

I do have one question (though any advice is always welcome). Is there a way to set something like a bookmark for certain hands in PT? This way I can keep track of hands I want to post, as well as keep track of hands that remind me not to be stupid.

One way is to have a pen and paper and to jot down your cards when you feel a hand warrants further thought/reminder status. Then when you finish your session, go to the session tab and filter on your last session only. Post the hands you want discussed immediately and put the stupidity/reminder hands in your ops thread.

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

I do have one question (though any advice is always welcome). Is there a way to set something like a bookmark for certain hands in PT? This way I can keep track of hands I want to post, as well as keep track of hands that remind me not to be stupid.

One way is to have a pen and paper and to jot down your cards when you feel a hand warrants further thought/reminder status. Then when you finish your session, go to the session tab and filter on your last session only. Post the hands you want discussed immediately and put the stupidity/reminder hands in your ops thread.

another is to get into your PT database, after a session, and go to the "game notes" tab. click "get all" on the right half, near the top. and click "net" in the individual hands you have played. clicking "net" will sort your biggest winners in order from biggest to smallest. click it again, and it will sort biggest losers first.

i will frequently do this to see how i played my best and worst hands of a given session, month, 10k hands, whatever. i try and wait until i have forgotten the HH. i will then call up the HH and click the "playback" feature. i have really learned a lot about my play from that alone.

hopefully, that helps you off your schnyde, too.

Discipline in anything can be developed through habit.

In that moment before you do something stupid, and you know you're about to do something stupid, instead of going ahead and doing it anyway, stop yourself. It'll be hard as fuck the first time, but with each successful time it will become easier and easier.

For example in something poker related that I remember doing at microstakes shortly after I very first started playing poker. Your AJ flops Axx. A very tight nitty guy who you have covered raises for 200bb over top of your cbet in a raised pot. Some people literally think, "Damn I can't call this," then hit the call button.

In that moment when you tell yourself that you can't call it, just fold. Don't start making excuses to yourself on why you might have the best hand or might suck out, just fold. Don't sit and stare at the screen as your time bank wastes away trying to convince yourself that it's a close decision because it's not.

Just fold and be proud that you got away from it. Once you do this a few times, it starts to become easier.

Hell, for a non-poker example, think about getting up at 7 am to go to class in college. Some people's alarm clock wake them up, they lay there a minute think about how they need to get up and don't want to, but end up falling asleep and missing class. Once they realize that they need to get up and they start doing it out of habit, no matter how much they don't want to, it'll become easier to out of sheer habit.

Holy shit this is long. But the point is, make like Nike and Just Do It.

imo, this is the first step to getting back on track. this is a hand i will typically try and convince myself i am ahead in. but, in reality, i know i am probably beat. its just hard to deal with a cold deck for a bit, and still drop this hand at microstakes.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($8)
UTG+1 ($6.05)
MP1 ($2.30)
MP2 ($9.10)
MP3 ($7.20)
Hero ($9.25)
Button ($6.30)
SB ($9.90)
BB ($9.35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, Q.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 raises to $0.2, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.20, Button calls $0.20, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.95) T, K, Q (4 players)
UTG bets $0.7, UTG+1 calls $0.70, Hero raises to $3, Button folds, UTG raises to $7.8, UTG+1 calls $5.15 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $15.65

Results in white below:
UTG doesn't show.
UTG+1 doesn't show.
Outcome: UTG wins $9.77. UTG+1 wins $7.82.

You might have to call on the end because of your pot odds. I'm too lazy to run it in PokerStove, but if you're against AJ and TT you probably still have like 20-25% equity here.

Edit: Yeah so I went ahead and ran it and against AJ and TT it's really close. You need 22.120% to breakeven and you've got 21.359% equity against AJ and TT. I'd imagine at 10nl they're going to have weaker holdings a lot of the time too, so this might not be as clear as you first thought.

i guess i didnt think it as "clear" as i said. but, this is what used to get me FLAMED like hell on these boards. i used to fold this, at donkey-stakes, almost everytime. i have a max of 4 outs to improve, and 2 players are putting their stacks in after i bombed the flop with a serious raise.

they held AJ and J9. i just dont want to draw to 4 outs when WB and stacks are already in.

this is one where i would say its a "read based" laydown, not a "math based" call. i would buck the math in a situation like this because the donkeys are telling me to. how often is this TP or a draw? maybe a big draw, but not with the caller. they are not BOTH on draws. i used to get flamed for using my "instincts" instead of math when i had a smaller edge. and, thats fine. i used to carry a 10+/100, too. i make more equity based calls, and my winrate sucks now...and my variance shot through the roof. granted, i'm running really poor, but i used to be able to drop this hand, and lately, i havent been able to let it go. i was happy to finally give a little credit to donkeys...and be right.

sorry, that's not intended to be a rant.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

In that moment before you do something stupid, and you know you're about to do something stupid, instead of going ahead and doing it anyway, stop yourself.

Very nice advice.
I am making myself re-read this post reasonably frequently.
Not adhering to the rules I stated in my OP is probably costing me around 1 buy-in per thousand hands. That's like 5ptBB/100.
It has to stop. Goal is to play 20k hands well at 50nl - the cash will follow.

Originally Posted by Chopper

i guess i didnt think it as "clear" as i said. but, this is what used to get me FLAMED like hell on these boards. i used to fold this, at donkey-stakes, almost everytime. i have a max of 4 outs to improve, and 2 players are putting their stacks in after i bombed the flop with a serious raise.

they held AJ and J9. i just dont want to draw to 4 outs when WB and stacks are already in.

this is one where i would say its a "read based" laydown, not a "math based" call. i would buck the math in a situation like this because the donkeys are telling me to. how often is this TP or a draw? maybe a big draw, but not with the caller. they are not BOTH on draws. i used to get flamed for using my "instincts" instead of math when i had a smaller edge. and, thats fine. i used to carry a 10+/100, too. i make more equity based calls, and my winrate sucks now...and my variance shot through the roof. granted, i'm running really poor, but i used to be able to drop this hand, and lately, i havent been able to let it go. i was happy to finally give a little credit to donkeys...and be right.

sorry, that's not intended to be a rant.

This is a great laydown. You so know you are beat here. I made a few laydowns like this last night and saved a lot of money.

Bump for quality Good advice ITT and bigred is serious for once.

Originally Posted by daven

How do you play your A-game all the time?

By this I mean:
* laying down hands you know are beaten
* respecting pot odds
* only calling with implied odds if they really exist
* playing tight when necessary
* playing loose when necessary
* getting value rather than scaring people out of pots

Thoughts?

Since we're resurrecting this thread and since it fits in nicely with an irc discussion last night regarding anxiety I'd like to share my thoughts.

To play your top game you need to be well prepared. Spend five or ten minutes, or however long it takes you, to focus on your strengths and weaknesses. Make an achievable goal for the upcoming session and write it down. Close your eyes and visualize how you are going to play to reach your goal.