Playing Draws OOP vs. PFR

Ciao Bambini!

Here's a situation that I've been seeing a bit recently - calling a PFR whilst in SB or BB, then flopping a draw HU, with PFR still to act.

A couple of examples below.

In both these hands Villains are nitty (13/13 for Ex 1, 14/10 for Ex 2. No other reads as only have ~40 hands of data), but I'd also like to hear your views on lines in similar spots vs. a) Loose players and b) habitual stealers. i.e. what do i need to be thinking about in these kinda spots?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker

grazie!

Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($4.11)
MP ($5.53)
SB ($3.31)
CO ($1.90)
UTG ($4.57)
Button ($3.51)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10, A
2 folds, CO bets $0.12, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.26) 3, 2, 5 (2 players)
Hero ???

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (5 handed) - Party-Poker

Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($5.52)
Hero (SB) ($7.70)
BB ($4.09)
Button ($2.59)
UTG ($4)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, Q
1 fold, MP bets $0.16, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.14, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.36) 10, 9, 6 (2 players)
Hero ???

Hand 1: You have 13 outs, so if you get to see both turn/river you have 52% to make your hand. So it depends how little +EV you wanna exploit. But I'd bet flop and fold to a large reraise.

Preflop: 55+,ATs+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo

Flop: Call Range : 66-TT, lower flush draw.
Reraise Range: JJ+,55. Vs this range we're 48% favourite.

Vs Loose player I'd try and get all in. Vs stealer I'd c/r flop.

Hand 2: I doubt the flop connected with his hand(so he would probably check behind, but we dont know his cbet %, so I'd make a standard cbet, hope to take it down on the flop. But if he comes over the top with a big raise I'd fold.

it depends how often they are cbetting. hand 1 is a good hand to c/r but you should donk if he isn't cbetting much and barrel pretty much every turn in the deck.

hand 2 - loads of ways to go about this, you can c/r, c/c, or donk. if he's cbetting a lot and giving up which means he'll be folding the river a super high % after he checks back turn then just c/c, if he's cbetting a lot but 2barreling a decent frequency just c/r and if he's not cbetting much or is going to be checking this flop back a lot I'd donk planning to 3barrel quite a bit if he's had a loose open and liked to peel a lot w/ since he'll have lots of pair + gutters and shit(this isn't the case but you should know this anyway).

c/c is ofcourse viable in hand1 also for the same reasons as hand 2, it's actually probably better then c/r actually since we rarely have a set here although if we had a set we'd c/r so w/e you think is better depending on the villain

bet-folding flop in hand 1 is not even an option, we're 62% vs. 99, 54% vs. two black kings. bet-3b, c/c, c/r etc.

hand 1 c/r barrel or lead, barrel, or if it goes c c barreling all viable options

hand 2 bet. bet. and prolly bet a lot of rivers.

cool - thanks guys. appreciated as always

i don't have enough data on these villains to have a reliable cBet %:

H1 23 hands, cBet 2 out of 2 opportunities
H2 42 hands, cBet 1 out of 3 opportunities

should i pursue the same line(s) anyway?

also - quick jargon check, please, yaawn - wot does 'peel' mean in this context?

TTFN

peel means call although it has different connotations than "call" or "float" or "flat."

cheers baudib

so...u not SnG-ing no more?

I'm basically not playing anymore, although I've been doing a lot of studying and reading. I feel like a better player even without playing a hand in a month, lol.

I am prolly c/r both hands.

that would normally be my line, chard, but against nits who might check back a lot I think leading is good.

peel means call although it has different connotations than "call" or "float" or "flat."

don't want to really derail but wanted to clarify this. probably no one else cares but I'm interested in poker language usage.

Call is obviously well-known and the most universal, comprehensive term. But in common usage we break down calls various ways:

1. To "peel" is to call a bet on the flop from a preflop raiser, generally when we have medium-strength, SD value hand and aren't sure the PFR has a hand yet. I.e., "UTG raises, we call on button with 88, flop is 972r, he bets, we peel one."

2. "Float" - We are facing a bet from PFR or a donk in position. We can either have a draw or air or marginal SDV but floating implies we intend to take it away from them on a later street. "Loose CO opens, I call on BTN with JTs. Flop is 972r, he bets. He has a high c-bet frequency but low double-barrel frequency, so I float with my gutshot and overs."

3. "Flat" generally refers to preflop action when we are facing a raise and it's a spot where we could very well 3-bet but instead, we flat. "Nit opens UTG, I flat JJ in MP."

Originally Posted by baudib

...probably no one else cares..."

no, no, i care too. this is very useful

thanks mate

why call pre in hand 1?

Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket

why call pre in hand 1?

cuz i suck @ poker?



def gimme ur views, but i wanna focus on postflop ITT. if u fink it's off, just pretend it's a misclick or a cat-walked-on-the-keyboard scenario?

Calling preflop in hand is totally fine. You're doing the whole assuming you're wrong because you suck thing. Yeah you suck, but you can still get things right once in a while!

Try thinking about 3 betting vs flatting. What is villain continuing with if you 3 bet? How do you do vs this range? How does flatting compare with folding? How do you do vs his opening range? How does this reflect against the pot odds/price you're getting preflop? How will your hand play post flop? Will it flop well? Will it dominate villains range or be dominated? etc etc

Think about all these things and post some answers. You might mess it up horribly at first but if you say "I dunno I suck" every time someone asks you why you took X action, you sure as hell wont get better very quickly!

Becoming good at poker is about learning to solve problems on your own, and I find the best way to do this is a hands on approach.

I'll shed some light on how I construe these terms for calling in poker while I'm at it.

Peel - Generally a tentative call with implications that A: your hand probably isn't too strong and B: You're going to decide more stuff when the next card comes off, or you want to see the next card + how villain plays the next street. Peel comes from the next card "peeling" off, so calling is to cause the peeling of the next card.

Float - Call a bet postflop without a strong hand with the intention of winning the pot at a future point. Can be done with or without non made hand equity.

Flat - Just a standard name for calling, usually preflop. I wouldn't say it has to be with a hand you may otherwise 3-bet. I'd say "So I flat 88 on the BU vs the UTg open." I'd always flat 88 here, but don't think the use of flat is inappropriate.

Smooth Call - A live term for flatting a hand you could certainly have 3 bet. EG> "OMG Jesse, Chirs Ferguson has elected to smooth call his Cowboys!"

Here are some other ones:

CIB (click it back) - To min raise someone's bet preflop or post flop usually quickly. Seen as cheeky/tilting/inducing.

Re-pop - Horrible ugly dumb sounding live term for reraising preflop (3, 4 or 5 betting etc) or raising at some point post flop.

Stab - To bet in order to take a shot at winning a pot when noone else has bet, usually with very minimal equity or none.

There are probably loads more you'll come across too.

ATs is precisely the hand we want to flat vs. a late-position opener, I thought.

Originally Posted by baudib

ATs is precisely the hand we want to flat vs. a late-position opener, I thought.

Agree flatting's good.

Originally Posted by Carroters

...You're doing the whole assuming you're wrong because you suck thing...

sorry Coach

SORRY IS FOR WHIMPS, MAGGOT! NOW DROP AND GIVE ME 20 RANGES.

SIR!! YES, SIR!!

5% is 77+,AJs+!!
10% to 5% is 66,ATs-A8s,KJs+,ATo+!!
15% to 10% is 55,A7s-A5s,KTs-K9s,QJs,A9o,KJo+!!
20% to 15% is A4s-A3s,K8s,QTs,A8o-A7o,KTo-K9o,QJo!!
25% to 20% is 44,A2s,K7s,Q9s,JTs,A6o-A5o,QTo!!
30% to 25% is K6s-K5s,Q8s,J9s,A4o-A3o,K8o,Q9o!!
35% to 30% is K4s-K3s,Q7s,J8s,T9s,A2o,K7o-K6o,JTo!!
40% to 35% is 33,K2s,Q6s-Q5s,T8s,K5o-K4o,Q8o,J9o!!

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

SIR!! YES, SIR!!

5% is 77+,AJs+!!
10% to 5% is 66,ATs-A8s,KJs+,ATo+!!
15% to 10% is 55,A7s-A5s,KTs-K9s,QJs,A9o,KJo+!!
20% to 15% is A4s-A3s,K8s,QTs,A8o-A7o,KTo-K9o,QJo!!
25% to 20% is 44,A2s,K7s,Q9s,JTs,A6o-A5o,QTo!!
30% to 25% is K6s-K5s,Q8s,J9s,A4o-A3o,K8o,Q9o!!
35% to 30% is K4s-K3s,Q7s,J8s,T9s,A2o,K7o-K6o,JTo!!
40% to 35% is 33,K2s,Q6s-Q5s,T8s,K5o-K4o,Q8o,J9o!!

over valuing offsuit broadway cards and undervaluing SCs imo

Originally Posted by Carroters

...Think about all these things and post some answers...

OK, let the cheerful, ritual humiliation begin...

What is villain continuing with if you 3 bet?
13/13/0 = nitty, so KK+,AK…maybe QQ

How do you do vs this range?
29% (7:3 Dog)

How does flatting compare with folding?
Folding = 0EV
Flatting puts me HU in a 6.5 BB pot vs. his full opening range

How do you do vs his opening range?
13/13 = 77+,A8s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+
46% (Evens) preflop
67% postflop (2:1 Fav)

How does this reflect against the pot odds/price you're getting preflop?
PreFlop Pot Odds = 2.25:1
Betting 0.08 to win 0.18 at 1:1 (ish) = +0.0396 EV

How will your hand play post flop? Will it flop well?
Pair 27% (unpaired board)
* 13.5% Ace makes TPWK
* 10% Ten makes TPTK
SD 14%
FD 11%

Will it dominate villains range or be dominated?
39 combos from his openening dominate
108 don’t
(both accounting for blockers)

Very good work sir!

And from these results you can go ahead and draw the conclusion that flatting is easily +EV. Everything is basically in you favor here.

The only thing is.A lot of your answers are extremely factual without a conclusion being drawn as to whether these facts are good or bad and what they mean. Yeah your hand flops this thing x amount and that thing Y amount, but the point is that, yeah it flops lots of stuff that gives you sd value,value betting hands and equity to do stuff with so it "plays wells/flops well"

And similarly on domination, the conclusions are you're not dominated very often and dominate villains holding s a fair bit.

It may seem weird using specific calculations and work to generate what may sound like vaguer conclusions. But what we ask in poker analysis is usually "is this good/bad and because of what factors? Doing the exact working will give you a feel for how to make these snugger judgments at the tables. Be sure you understand why these numbers make the play in question good/bad.

Really good effort, well done.

Thanks for them kind words, Boss.

Yeh - the putting-it-all-together thing....more homework required, methinks

A question: above analysis shows calling is +EV, but similar calcs seem to to suggest that 3Betting is even more +EV vs. nitty villain.

Is this where implied odds become a factor?

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

Thanks for them kind words, Boss.

Yeh - the putting-it-all-together thing....more homework required, methinks

A question: above analysis shows calling is +EV, but similar calcs seem to to suggest that 3Betting is even more +EV vs. nitty villain.

Is this where implied odds become a factor?

No, this is where the fact that you don't want to be 3bing 20% becomes a factor and other shit just thing of how you'll be playing your entire range.