Playing for draws....

This is a huge leak in my game.

I am having a hard time playing for draws.

Scenario 1: How would one bet at the pot when hitting a 4 flush draw and NO pair on the board if you were FIRST to act, or LAST to act?

Scenario 2: How would one bet at the pot when hitting middle pair and a 4 card flush?
First and last to act?

Scenario 3: How woud one bet when hitting top pair and 4 card flush?

Thanks.... I really need to work at this, since I seemed to find myself in this situation!!

If it's ring and i'm first to act on all three scenario's i'm check/calling if the pot odds are good enough. Maybe leading out on scenario 3 if i have Ax suited and x is top pair and i don't think my opponents are likely to reraise me big.

If you're last to act and theres no bet in front of you: Check and draw, make your hand...usually. If there's a bet in front of you: Call if the pot odds + implied odds are good if you make your hand. If it's scenario 3 and you have top pair and you're last to act, with two of a suit on board, and there's no bet in front of you, you usually have the best hand. People tend to bet things like two pair or a set with a flush draw on board because their hand is vulnerable to the flush draw and they don't want to give a free card. Feel free to bet top pair+flush draw when you're in position if it's checked around to you.

scenario 2 and 3 give you 14 outs to 2pair or better, i love hands like that, 3 being a great hand.. at a weak table i may consider pushing that on the flop.. if its low stakes your probably a fav anyway.. In scenario 3 you have a 51% chance to improve by the river and your probably already winning anyway.

First to act I may bet, check the turn unimproved.

I may check and look for odds to call back to me.

In position, I'll probably raise a smallish bet so they give me a free card.

I'll probably bet if checked to me for that same free card.

With a pair, your outs usually improve against most hands. You've got a good chance of showing down a winner but you could easily be moved off the pot if someone does pot or overbet behind you. So you should bet to keep yourself in it.

-'rilla

Oh and scenario 3. Just like two pair.

-'rilla

It's a very complex situation with many answers based on many scenerios. Here's my general answer...

When flopping a 4 flush your first priority is to find out how the flop hit everyone. So you evaluate the flop to see how likely it is that it helped anyone else in the hand, and furthermore whether they would raise you if you bet into them. If you're sitting in early position 5 handed and two broadways flop, then obviously you must check and call with odds. otherwise fold.

You should get into the habit of betting the pot amount on the flop every single time you feel there's a chance you can take the pot down right there. That's regardless of position. You should also always bet the pot amount from any position if you feel there's a great chance someone might come along but won't raise you. It takes a while, but eventually you'll be able to successfully pull this off in early positions. This is why it's NOT recommended to play suited aces and kings from early position. They are very difficult to make money on even if you hit. Sometimes you end up in the blinds 4 flushing however, so that's the way it goes.

BET YOUR DRAW FOR ACTION

Extracting implied odds out of a flush draw is an important action to take when you're 4 flushing. Flush draws have very bad implied odds when your opponent has any indication that you're drawing. That's why it's important NOT to underbet the pot at all if you take control. You want people eliminating the possibility of flush in their own minds so that you get payed off when they hit stuff like two pair, trips, or a straight to your winning flush.

An advanced technique is to check raise in early position when your two flush cards in hand are overs to the board. That's because a check raise completely disguises a draw (since very few players would do that). It's correct because you have potentially 15 good outs, and you gain fold equity against your opponent when you check raise. When drawing to straights and flushes, it's good practice to act like your trying to CHASE YOUR OWN DRAW AWAY. It stimulates action all day long. Once again you can afford to do this because you have fold equity against your opponent. I'm bad at poker math, but your opponent folds often enough to give you a profit to play this way if you have good reads.

Whatever you do, DON'T MIN BET A FLUSH DRAW. Opponents will make you pay dearly for a draw they never intend to pay off if you stick around for it to hit (after you call big incorrect bets). Next time you min bet a flush draw, shoot yourself in the face. Just end it all right there. Tell yourself you're doing the complete opposite thing you should be doing. You don't want to tell your opponent you're drawing. You want to INSIST to them that you aren't.

These are cash game techniques. Late in a raising blind tournament is another discussion.

Let me make sure I have this right:

Rondavu:::::I should bet the size of the pot when drawing?

Only from early position, or always?...

Originally Posted by Rondavu

It's a very complex situation with many answers based on many scenerios. Here's my general answer...

When flopping a 4 flush your first priority is to find out how the flop hit everyone. So you evaluate the flop to see how likely it is that it helped anyone else in the hand, and furthermore whether they would raise you if you bet into them. If you're sitting in early position 5 handed and two broadways flop, then obviously you must check and call with odds. otherwise fold.

You should get into the habit of betting the pot amount on the flop every single time you feel there's a chance you can take the pot down right there. That's regardless of position. You should also always bet the pot amount from any position if you feel there's a great chance someone might come along but won't raise you. It takes a while, but eventually you'll be able to successfully pull this off in early positions. This is why it's NOT recommended to play suited aces and kings from early position. They are very difficult to make money on even if you hit. Sometimes you end up in the blinds 4 flushing however, so that's the way it goes.

BET YOUR DRAW FOR ACTION

Extracting implied odds out of a flush draw is an important action to take when you're 4 flushing. Flush draws have very bad implied odds when your opponent has any indication that you're drawing. That's why it's important NOT to underbet the pot at all if you take control. You want people eliminating the possibility of flush in their own minds so that you get payed off when they hit stuff like two pair, trips, or a straight to your winning flush.

An advanced technique is to check raise in early position when your two flush cards in hand are overs to the board. That's because a check raise completely disguises a draw (since very few players would do that). It's correct because you have potentially 15 good outs, and you gain fold equity against your opponent when you check raise. When drawing to straights and flushes, it's good practice to act like your trying to CHASE YOUR OWN DRAW AWAY. It stimulates action all day long. Once again you can afford to do this because you have fold equity against your opponent. I'm bad at poker math, but your opponent folds often enough to give you a profit to play this way if you have good reads.

Whatever you do, DON'T MIN BET A FLUSH DRAW. Opponents will make you pay dearly for a draw they never intend to pay off if you stick around for it to hit (after you call big incorrect bets). Next time you min bet a flush draw, shoot yourself in the face. Just end it all right there. Tell yourself you're doing the complete opposite thing you should be doing. You don't want to tell your opponent you're drawing. You want to INSIST to them that you aren't.

These are cash game techniques. Late in a raising blind tournament is another discussion.

Thats a well laid out post. I like the advice but it can only be profitable if you get folds often enough. I am going to try the check raise thing especialy, since it holds the most posibility for folds. My level has enough calling stations that it may not work but I am going to try this. Thanks Rondavu

Originally Posted by sunfunbunch

Let me make sure I have this right:

Rondavu:::::I should bet the size of the pot when drawing?

Only from early position, or always?...

Mostly from late position. Barely ever from early position. From any position shorthanded if you think you can get the pot immediately.

Originally Posted by EricE

Thats a well laid out post. I like the advice but it can only be profitable if you get folds often enough. I am going to try the check raise thing especialy, since it holds the most posibility for folds. My level has enough calling stations that it may not work but I am going to try this. Thanks Rondavu

On lower levels with a lot of calling stations you don't need to disguise your draws as much, because the natural action (implied odds) are higher for obvious calling station reasons. The fold equity is practically non existent. That being said, the techniques I lay out are best against adequate opponents at say 25NL and up.

Basically at lower levels you don't want to try early position pot bets on draws given the lack of fold equity ever. I would still bet the pot amount in late position.

An important point is that I am assuming the pot isn't already huge when you make these actions.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Originally Posted by sunfunbunch

Let me make sure I have this right:

Rondavu:::::I should bet the size of the pot when drawing?

Only from early position, or always?...

Mostly from late position. Barely ever from early position. From any position shorthanded if you think you can get the pot immediately.

Ron do you only suggest this with the OESD + Flush draw? You can't just mean make pot sized bets with a 4 flush draw and the likelihood you're looking at TPTK or better. The fold equity and added implied odds if you hit don't seem to make up for the amount of time you miss.

If you bet the pot on just a flush draw and get called, then catch a blank on the turn, do you bet again?

It depends a lot on how many people you have acting after you, what the board is like, and your table. It's also important to remember that you need to be fairly certain that you are not drawing to the second best flush. It's also good to remember that you are paying to see ONE card, not two. People fear the flush draw, and they will certainly do their best to bet you out of the pot when your suit doesn't hit on the turn.

There are other posters here that are better with this question, but I'll give my opinion for the sake of having nothing else better to do right now.

Scenario 1 = First to act - check/call if the odds are right. Last to act - bet the pot.

I check/call because I don't want to give myself the correct odds with my own money should I get check raised.

Scenario 2 = Middle pair + flush draw is great when there's not a lot of action going on. So it's obviously much stronger when you have it in lp and they check to you. If there are two or more people acting after me, I will check/call, or check/raise if I think the bettor is full of it . If I'm last to act, I will bet or raise it, hoping to check the turn should I not improve.

Scenario 3 = With a decent kicker and the right board, I will bet this one all the way down. You'll rep the top pair and no one will put you on the flush.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

First to act I may bet, check the turn unimproved.

I may check and look for odds to call back to me.

In position, I'll probably raise a smallish bet so they give me a free card.

I'll probably bet if checked to me for that same free card.

With a pair, your outs usually improve against most hands. You've got a good chance of showing down a winner but you could easily be moved off the pot if someone does pot or overbet behind you. So you should bet to keep yourself in it.

-'rilla

I don't really like the idea of raising "to get a free card" in no limit. If your opponent is checking to you, why would you not take the opportunity to bluff them again (not to mention potentially win an even bigger pot if you hit)? By raising and then checking the turn, suddenly your line of play is no longer consistent with strength and a river bluff is less likely to work.

If I'm going to bluff, I want my play on every street to be consistent with the hand I'm trying to represent (in the case of a bluff, a set, straight, or whatever is strong relative to the board). If I lose a big pot as a result, oh well, but assuming I'm semi-bluffing, I'm at least putting myself in a position to win a large one as well.

Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU

You can't just mean make pot sized bets with a 4 flush draw and the likelihood you're looking at TPTK or better.

It's not likely you're looking at TPTK after you watch your opponents check weak to you in late position.

Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU

The fold equity and added implied odds if you hit don't seem to make up for the amount of time you miss.

They do if you make sure your fold equity is there. That has a lot to do with the board and how weak you percieve your opponents.

Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU

If you bet the pot on just a flush draw and get called, then catch a blank on the turn, do you bet again?

Usually not. You have position on an opponent that was willing to match a pot sized bet, and was just kind enough to check to you on the turn holding the winning hand. Take the free card unless you think someone is genuinely weak, or too weak tight.