Player notes, moving up, Laggin it up

The other day I started playing 100NL. I have 15 buyins and skipped 50NL. At 25NL, the money didn't mean as much since I was overbankrolled and I got bored. So, I moved up but only play 1 table rather than 3-4. I also started taking player notes. Every pfr and subsequent bets are noted followed by the showdown hand if that occurs. If I notice a pattern, I write that down. Not only does it help me peg players, but it forces me to pay attention to every detail. Dazing off in the middle of hands I'm not in doesn't happen. This is done in an effort to become a better player. Multi-tabling lower limits didn't do help me progress.

After my initial session of playing TAG, I was up 1.5 buyins - basically on one hand. The next session I played TAG but at one point the table got down to 5 people with two TAGs, one LAG and one Loose-Passive (both who took some of my money earlier). So, I switched to LAG. I was down before that point and ended up back to even despite getting cold cards. With my player notes, I was able to bet when I sensed weakness and steal tons of pots. The loose players couldn't adjust to my adjustments and I outplayed them. They couldn't count on me being weak and I started running things especially with my new reads.

My third session, I played LAG right off the bat. I was up and even and down,etc. I was down for the night but I'm still learning. I didn't hit a big hand the whole time, so it was a bunch of small-medium pots I lost that added up. I knew if I hit a hand I would easily get paid off - just never happened.

For me it's hard to take mental notes and actually remember them later on, especially between sessions. So, writing things down makes a difference. Right now I'm just using Notepad. This is not a PT supported site and I don't want to run Excel since it uses too much memory (plus it's been crashing on me lately). If anyone has anything better, let me know. I tried taking notes at 25NL when 3-tabling but it was too much. If you aren't taking notes on players, you may want to try it. I think you can improve your game. You don't have to change your playing style. I just did it for an experiment.

I'm playing a huge range of hands. As low as unsuited one gappers for a limp in late position. I'm either folding to aggression, buying pots with reads or actually hitting well-hidden hands and winning mid-large pots. I know I just started this style - should I back off a little and only play suited cons? The crappy starting hands are very easy to fold.

Sorry for the long post that wandered a bit. Just wanted to convey and get some info. Happy New Year.

Have you tried 6_max? The players seem slightly worst and with 2 tables you are up against 10 opps which is only 1 more than full ring. Its also the best place LAG play as theres les set miners.

Hands like 86s and 76o are fine for smart LAG play, I've even heads rumours the some players like 74o.....

Good luck.

Originally Posted by finky

Have you tried 6_max? The players seem slightly worst and with 2 tables you are up against 10 opps which is only 1 more than full ring. Its also the best place LAG play as theres les set miners.

Hands like 86s and 76o are fine for smart LAG play, I've even heads rumours the some players like 74o.....

Good luck.

Actually the site I'm at has 5max instead of 6max (I don't know why). 10max should be good for LAG because more dead money - therfore more hands get odds. Plus, 6max people are used to LAGs (I assume). But the 6max forums are probably a good place to get tips.

I'll play 97o late because it's easy to lay down and if I hit a str8 and bet, people think I'm bluffing or have top pair or something because it's harder to detect.

Originally Posted by r8ed

if I hit a str8 and bet, people think I'm bluffing or have top pair or something

When someone bets, I too think they have one of three things:
a) something
b) top pair
c) bluffing

A straight is very undetectable. I think moreso than a flush because of the visual catch.

From the way you're talking, it sounds like you're moving in the right direction. Your goal is to have a dynamic arsenal and ability to change on the fly when the situation calls for it. Sounds to me like you just need to improve what you're doing once you decide to switch gears. There is a such thing as cautious LAG. I've begun to employ this. The fact is LAGGING makes your opponents slowplay way more than they should. I won't always continue after building an aggressive image if I feel there's A) a good chance my opponent will not fold if I bet depending on the board and their range, and B) An extra card can bring me closer to a winning hand. Like if I raise 87c, and the flop comes out 6s As Tc, I will check behind if my opponent checks the flop to me. The turn can make me or improve me, and I don't want to be check raised. There's a good chance my opponent may stick around with a pair, flush draw, or straight draw anyway. If they call my bet, I can't pinpoint their hand, since my image is so loose, and it widens the calling range of an opponent after the flop.

You have to get a feel for when it's appropriate to continue like clockwork. It's important to stay unpredictable, and picking your battles works wonders in this department.

I think finding spots is important like you say Rondavu. I got on a table last night and started playing a little loose but then realized I could make more/similar money playing TAG with less variance, so I switched and it seemed to work well. I think it's good to be proficient in TAG and LAG and that's the reason I sort of forced myself to play that way the other day.

The main difference I'm seeing between 100NL and 25NL is less people seeing the flop and more TAG multitablers. However, there are still enough loose and foolish players around - you just have to get to them before everyone else does. Playing one table and taking notes is giving me an advantage over the multitablers that I did not have before when I was one of them.

Just start to get a sense for who you're in the pot with and what their range is. Sounds elementary, but it can't be overstated. It's just never reasonable to bet into the winning hand that won't fold. A lot of LAG players lose money here, continuing mechanically, and thus reducing themselves to maniac status. Why did the opponent call preflop? Are they sick of you winning pot after pot, and you've widened their range? Is it a multitabler who is oblivious to your siege, and simply caught a hand? Hope for a rag board if you wiff, and put pressure on him. Know how the board impacted. You can afford to lose some continuations if you know how to maximize value in the right spots as well. I'll see someone acting laggy, and then when they make a hand they're making small value bets with a bad image that are a disgrace to implied odds. That has the effect of reducing your maneuverability in shy pots.

Just out of interest R8ed, why did you skip 50NL? I have just moved to 50NL 6max on Stars. The standard is pretty similar to 25NL now I have adjusted to the new pot sizes. I think if I jumped straight to 100NL there is a chance I would just freeze up with the amount of $$ on the table!

On a side I also note every players Pre flop raises and re-raises that go to show down, its amazing how many patterns start to emerge.

Originally Posted by Seasider

Just out of interest R8ed, why did you skip 50NL? I have just moved to 50NL 6max on Stars. The standard is pretty similar to 25NL now I have adjusted to the new pot sizes. I think if I jumped straight to 100NL there is a chance I would just freeze up with the amount of $$ on the table!

On a side I also note every players Pre flop raises and re-raises that go to show down, its amazing how many patterns start to emerge.

6max is different. Full Ring 50NL tends to be 25Nl graduates which are all TAG. For some reason newbs don't like to break a dollar, so they take a stab at 100NL. Plus, people that played live in the past are used to bigger buyins so they start at 100NL. I know many many players that did well at 25, just OK at 50, and well at 100. My bankroll is 16 buyins, so I'm not that scared but scared enough to play with my head.

Pot sizes are all relative. It doesn't throw me off when the pots get big. Just focus on playing smart.

Originally Posted by r8ed

Pot sizes are all relative. It doesn't throw me off when the pots get big. Just focus on playing smart.

Cheers my head says this but sometimes my heart falters, I started out at $2NL tho so some day i'll be ready, I just take a while to adjust!

By the sounds of it I cant wait to get up to $100NL, but I was going to wait until about 2.5K, have about 1.5K now.

10max should be good for LAG because more dead money - therfore more hands get odds.

It has been my experience that 9 and 10-handed tables tend to punish overly loose players.

Originally Posted by Lukie

10max should be good for LAG because more dead money - therfore more hands get odds.

It has been my experience that 9 and 10-handed tables tend to punish overly loose players.

Agreed.
The more people at a table noticing that you are lagging it up, the more people will camp and come after you.

http://www.tightpoker.com/player_notes.html

look at this link if you want notes.

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

Originally Posted by Lukie

10max should be good for LAG because more dead money - therfore more hands get odds.

It has been my experience that 9 and 10-handed tables tend to punish overly loose players.

Agreed.
The more people at a table noticing that you are lagging it up, the more people will camp and come after you.

Right. You have to play smart. But isn't that the point of playing LAG? You get people to play back at you - usually in a way they are not used to doing. It actually happened to me last night. I was playing TAG and a maniac came to my table and went up big hitting lucky hands and bluffing. He made a big bet against me when I held top two pair with a pair on the board. I called and they had trips. I usually wouldn't make that call but they overbet and showed down crap so many times. If you LAG smart enough you will let hands go when you meet real aggression.

I've been playing TAG since my post because of table dynamics (and I'm doing well) but when the table gets less then 8 people, I open up more. I do limp one-gappers from the button now though. These hands are really paying off when ther are many limpers. Somebody hits TPTK or better and you can extract some money with a hidden straight.

Originally Posted by r8ed

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

Originally Posted by Lukie

10max should be good for LAG because more dead money - therfore more hands get odds.

It has been my experience that 9 and 10-handed tables tend to punish overly loose players.

Agreed.
The more people at a table noticing that you are lagging it up, the more people will camp and come after you.

Right. You have to play smart. But isn't that the point of playing LAG? You get people to play back at you - usually in a way they are not used to doing. It actually happened to me last night. I was playing TAG and a maniac came to my table and went up big hitting lucky hands and bluffing. He made a big bet against me when I held top two pair with a pair on the board. I called and they had trips. I usually wouldn't make that call but they overbet and showed down crap so many times. If you LAG smart enough you will let hands go when you meet real aggression.

I've been playing TAG since my post because of table dynamics (and I'm doing well) but when the table gets less then 8 people, I open up more. I do limp one-gappers from the button now though. These hands are really paying off when ther are many limpers. Somebody hits TPTK or better and you can extract some money with a hidden straight.

I agree with you, but I hate when people defend any certain style of play with 'this one time, this player was doing this, and it caused this to happen, and he made a bunch of money', or anything similar.

I personally don't feel anybody should label themselves as anything, whether it be laggy, tagg, whatever. You should be playing based on the table, players, stack sizes, position, etc. and your style should ultimately be what you think will be the most profitable at the time. That means changing.

I'm sure you will get conflicting answers from different people on how I play. At times I can be a complete rock and just play PP's and premiums and only bet when I'm confident I have the best of it. Other times I can be very laggy.. especially on very tight tables. If I have a maniac on my right, I just love to hit that call button. If I have a smart, agressive player on my right, I may be raising with any 2. You get the point. Generally though, I would consider my play tight-agressive with a twist. One thing I universally respect though is position.. especially positional raises.

If you really want to open your game up, you just have to be careful WHEN you do it. A very fishy, full table is going to absolutely murder a loose player, regardless of how skilled you are. Speaking of how skilled you may be, a loose player should be more skilled then the vast majority of the players at the table, simply because you are putting yourself in far more marginal positions, often out of position, due to the lack of quality cards (in comparison) that you are playing. I'm just telling you to be careful since I know you just graduated NL25.. nothing against that.. but most of the players at that level aren't very solid by any stretch of the imagination.