Placing opponents on ranges/line check

Suffering a wee bit of insomnia so decided to go through hands and practice putting folk on ranges as I haven't been doing this much at all and realise it's pretty vital! I'll explain my thought patterns street by street and hopefully you guys can point me in the right direction.

Please note I'm an ultimate uber beginner at this, so try not to be too harsh

UTG was 26/2 over 83 hands and BB 66/7 over 27 hands.


$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
6 Players

Stacks:
UTG Magica01 ($3.74)
UTG+1 cayana ($0.98)
CO PeKePrO ($0.80)
BTN Bwyn89 ($4.99)
SB Petulie ($2.18)
BB mitruelsen ($1.48)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03, 6 players) Petulie is SB
Magica01 calls $0.02, cayana calls $0.02, 2 folds, Petulie raises to $0.08, mitruelsen raises to $0.14, Magica01 calls $0.12, cayana folds, Petulie calls $0.06


Petulie: Pocket pairs, sweet, open 4x to set mine.
BB: min-raises. Really low PFR% so I'd expect a tight-ish 3-bet range (can't seem to find the 3-bet% in PT3, still very new to it) - TT+, AJ+, KQ?
UTG: calls after limping, looser range - AT+, KQ+, 22+?
Petulie: Decent price, call.


Flop: ($0.44, 3 players)
Petulie checks, mitruelsen bets $0.08, Magica01 calls $0.08, Petulie raises to $0.40, mitruelsen calls $0.32, Magica01 calls $0.32


Petulie: Hit my set, sweet! See what the others think of the flop. Plan: check call/raise depending on bet sizing.
BB min bets, not too confident or passive? AJ+, TT+ except AA.
UTG calls, probably not 88 or AA as would likely re-raise. Would probably fold 99, 77- and KQ. This leaves AT+, TT+ except AA.
Petulie: Cash this baby in! Re-raise. Probably a bit over-enthusiastic with the raise, maybe better to have gone 32c here?
Everyone calls. So BB likely AJ+ and UTG AT+ (excluding AA in both cases).


Turn: ($1.64, 3 players)
Petulie checks, mitruelsen checks, Magica01 checks


Petulie: slight concern about someone else hitting full house, you never know with these 2NL feeshes, could be random Ax. Plan: c/c. No one bets. Take that as a green light. Ranges confirmed(ish), BB AJ+ and UTG AT+ except AA.


River: ($1.64, 3 players)
Petulie goes all-in $1.64, mitruelsen goes all-in $0.94, Magica01 calls $1.64..........


Ship it!! All follow through, gotta be AX


Ok, so I do realise I shouldn't be results orientated etc and I'm maybe not quite so dramatic as described above.

Also, question: who is it that usually c-bets the flop: the pre-flop opener or 3-better?

Maybe I should revise my plan on the turn to c/f?

Originally Posted by Petulie

Maybe I should revise my plan on the turn to c/f?

There's no way I'd be folding that hand.

At 2nl I'm never folding this. I'm betting turn very hard for value. They may have an Ax full house but they could have any random Ax that you crush.
With a full House at 2nl I'm going for broke and dealing with the odd time I get out-housed....

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever check/fold this turn!

They're still getting it in with any Ax which is trips, which your full house beats. They're never folding these hands. Boats make up a very small tiny part of their ranges. Far more likely are AK AQ AJ AT, there are many more combinations of these in their ranges than 88 AA or A8, A2. Folding would be a huge mistake.

I'd just bet the turn small for value then jam the rest in on the river. The board is very dry, Ax is never folding at any stage regardles of what you do, and with a small bet/bet plan that offers awesome odds, you can also get a few more stacks from stuff like JJ-KK that's too retarded to fold the flop.

Your ranges look pretty good for a first attempt. When BB leads this tiny on the flop though I wouldn't take anything out of his range yet, this moron can certainly still have stuff like KQ or AA if he has it preflop.

Here's your equity vs turn ranges if you shove, and some proof of how bad c/f would be:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.327% 49.33% 00.00% 9157 0.00 { 2c2h }
Hand 1: 22.770% 20.09% 02.68% 3729 498.00 { AA, 88, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 2: 27.903% 25.22% 02.68% 4682 498.00 { AA, 88, AJs+, A8s, A2s, AJo+ }

Note UTG here has hands like A2s A8s etc since he will limp/call with these occassionally if we're being pescimistic where as BB will hardly ever 3 bet them so doesn't have them.

BB probably also has stuff like JJ-KK fairly often since he's a huge whale and hates to fold large pocket pairs even with an ace on board. He certainly still has these hands on the turn a decent % of the time. I haven't included them just to demonstrate that even if he never has them, it's still an easy bet for value.

If you do insist on checking the turn, you still can't fold to a bet because they'll very frequently bet or jam with Ax. As awesome as it would be to be able to say "right boats always bet the turn and Ax always checks," it just isn't true and there'll still be way more AK AQ etc than boats in their turn betting ranges than better hands. It's good that you're trying to take actions which clarify your opponents ranges here, this is a skill that can be useful when applicable. With experiecne you'll get a feel for which assumptions you can make and which you can't.

So yeah please please don't c/f here or I'll eat my own eyes.

Wow guys, thanks so much for all the positive feedback! Chuffed. I figured I was putting folk on way too tight ranges for 2NL. Not gonna float a boat on the turn ever again! (Not actually sure if that's what floating means in poker, but I like the metaphor cause I'm geeky like that).

Originally Posted by Carroters

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever check/fold this turn!

All right mate! Roflcopterz. Duly noted. When I'm sat HU vs Hellmuth and this situation comes up, I shall remember these very words and I better stack the fucker so I can laugh at his moody face!

Also noted about completing in SB. I actually started doing this with small PPs when in larger multiway pots sometime after playing this hand, so cool beans.

Cheers everyone!

Originally Posted by Carroters

Here's your equity vs turn ranges if you shove, and some proof of how bad c/f would be:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.327% 49.33% 00.00% 9157 0.00 { 2c2h }
Hand 1: 22.770% 20.09% 02.68% 3729 498.00 { AA, 88, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 2: 27.903% 25.22% 02.68% 4682 498.00 { AA, 88, AJs+, A8s, A2s, AJo+ }

Ignore that last comment

Ohhh one other thing. On the turn, do you think you'll have more equity by betting and getting called or when you check and call a bet?

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ohhh one other thing. On the turn, do you think you'll have more equity by betting and getting called or when you check and call a bet?

I have absolutely no idea but I assume by betting and getting called?? How do I go about finding out?

Originally Posted by Petulie

I have absolutely no idea but I assume by betting and getting called?? How do I go about finding out?

Expereicne. Consider this sort of stuff:

Does BB bet JJ-KK on this turn when you check should he have them. Does he call a small bet with them? Do players bet their Ax 100% here or as often as they bet full houses?

The more you play with different player types, you get a feel for their likely tendencies, just takes some time. You'd be surprised how predictable a large % of your villain pool becomes as you get used to recognising common patterns and spots.

Finally....

Petulie: Pocket pairs, sweet, open 4x to set mine.

You're opening partially to try to flop a set, but remember set mining is more when we plan to play fit or fold on the flop. We can still c-bet good boards to c-bet and win pots that way too, so it's not strcktly just to set mine, if it were, we'd rather limp or give ourselves a better price.

PS: Love your running commentary of your thoughts.

Just completing 22 from the small blind in this instance is fine since you'll usually be be out of position vs multiple people with a hand that's hard to play unless you flop a set.

Flop check/raise is good, could possibly go bigger because Ax isn't folding and we want to shove the turn for less than full pot.

Shove the turn for value based on the same logic

Originally Posted by HoopyDude

Just completing 22 from the small blind in this instance is fine since you'll usually be be out of position vs multiple people with a hand that's hard to play unless you flop a set.

Yep. didn't notice we were the SB here. Defo just complete preflop. Don't bloat pots oop with hands that usually flop like shit when you're getting an awesome price to try to flop a set here. KJ for example is a fine raise here due to the equity it commonly flops and frequent value potential, 22-77 less so, take your price with these hands when priced in oop facing limpers.

Nothing I can say that Carrotz already hasn't. I'd def bet the turn coz we're getting a shit ton of value from Ax and like Carrotz said we'll see A2, A8 almost never.

Also, question: who is it that usually c-bets the flop: the pre-flop opener or 3-better?

The last aggressor, which would be the 3bettor in this case.

LOL @ myself answering my own questions with entirely different things. Clearly haven't properly woken up yet.

Hadn't seen your response Carrotz. I see what you mean. In this case it would def be betting and getting called then as quite a wide range would call me, particularly at 2NL.

Yup it's a general rule at the nanos and micros that villains calling ranges will, on the whole, be substantially wider than their betting ranges.

Originally Posted by Carroters

Yup it's a general rule at the nanos and micros that villains calling ranges will, on the whole, be substantially wider than their betting ranges.

That's interesting. I never really considered that before. I've always operated under the belief that it takes a stronger hand to call then to bet.. well not always.. as you can see I've been losing my ass out there... but you know what I mean...

I'm gonna ponder that for a while.