Overpairs against an aggressor?

I'm having a bit of trouble playing overpairs when meeting with aggression post-flop. I'm Fairly new to NLHE ring, with only 2,500 hands played between 10NL and 25NL, and this seems to big one of my bigger problems.

I'm mostly curious if I'm being too loose with my calls.

Hand 1:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($25)
BB ($17.26)
UTG ($24.65)
UTG+1 ($14.88)
MP1 ($28.15)
MP2 ($15.75)
MP3 ($24.45)
Hero ($21.30)
Button ($6.30)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 raises to $1, Hero calls $1, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75.

Flop: ($4.35) 2, 7, 4 (4 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.25, MP1 folds, MP3 raises to $2, Hero raises to $4, UTG+1 raises to $6, MP3 folds, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($18.35) 2 (2 players)
UTG+1 calls $7.88 (All-In), Hero calls $7.88.

River: ($34.11) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $34.11


MP3 has been fairly aggressive so far, I doubt he has much more than AK-AJ but AA-TT is possible. I raised there for info and to try to prevent him from seeing the turn, should I have raised more? The UTG + 1 raise is scary, should I be able to fold there? Is the turn call awfull?


Hand 2:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($22)
MP3 ($58.73)
Hero ($28.05)
Button ($25)
SB ($13.03)
BB ($24.75)
UTG ($2.75)
UTG+1 ($20)
UTG+2 ($11.70)
MP1 ($16.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.85, 4 folds, Hero raises to $1.45, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.60.

Flop: ($3.25) 8, J, T (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2, Hero raises to $4, UTG+1 calls $2.

Turn: ($11.25) 2 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $5, UTG+1 raises to $10, Hero calls $5.

River: ($31.25) 6 (2 players)
UTG+1 calls $4.55 (All-In), Hero calls $4.55.

No read here. Should I be raising more preflop? Should I be folding to the turn raise?

Hand 3:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($11.40)
BB ($21.78)
UTG ($23.40)
UTG+1 ($72.34)
UTG+2 ($25.95)
MP1 ($21.40)
MP2 ($28.50)
MP3 ($24.40)
CO ($31.15)
Hero ($30.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
7 folds, Hero raises to $1, SB (poster) calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.25) Q, 5, Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, SB calls $2.

Turn: ($6.25) T (2 players)
SB bets $1.28, Hero calls $1.28.

River: ($8.81) 6 (2 players)
SB calls $7.12 (All-In), Hero calls $7.12.

Final Pot: $23.05

Maybe check the flop for pot control? I'm lost in this hand.

I'm a total n00b relative to most of the vets here at FTR, but the thing that jumps out at me from these hands is that your raises are all minraises. I think you get more information/leverage if you come back with at least a 3x raise. It at least forces a decision point earlier if you were waivering to begin with.

Hmm, I'll try and help. First things first, stop minraising, its horrible.

Hand #1: Your jacks are probably good unless someone is slowplaying and overpair, doubtful. Depends on how fishy your table is on this hand though. Someone may have hit a set on that flop and you're slowly paying them off, doubt it. Jacks were probably good.

Will do other 2 hands after school, gotta run!

Originally Posted by MSG85

MP3 has been fairly aggressive so far, I doubt he has much more than AK-AJ but AA-TT is possible. I raised there for info and to try to prevent him from seeing the turn, should I have raised more? The UTG + 1 raise is scary, should I be able to fold there? Is the turn call awfull?

It's funny how you say you "raised for info" but then totally ignored that ""info". I mean, we've had a (weak) bet, a raise, your minraise, and then another minraise. I doubt your jacks are good then. He reraised you.. isn't that the info that you are beat then? Or what kind of info were you hoping to receive?

About your minraise.. not only is "raising for info" bad, but minraising gives you no info either most of the time. A minraise almost always gives your opponent odds to call, so if he calls, then what have you learned? Nothing probably.

Basically you have to make a decision here on the flop. Do you think your jacks are good or not? Since you said you thought they were good, then either call and make sure more money goes in on the turn, or reraise properly. Pot is like $4, he raises over the minbet for $2, so pot is $6. Your minraise makes the pot $10 with him only having to call $2 to see the next card.

Overpairs are good for two things: When you lead the betting, and your opp follows, possibly on TP or a draw and pays you off like that. Or when you identify your opponent is someone who wants to dominate you (or the table on the whole) and overplays his hands. Then an overpair is a great way to 'trap' him and take his stack. But be careful, here he might very well have flopped two pair or a set or something..

It's never easy with these guys that play any two and become aggro at all times or seemingly random. You can very well get sucked out on if they flop 2 pair on their shit hand or something. Or be up against overpair because he just happened to receive a lucky AA/KK/QQ..

No read here. Should I be raising more preflop? Should I be folding to the turn raise?

Yes, raise more preflop, now you're giving him odds to suck out on you, which is probably what happened. Make it 2.5x to 3x his bet. So raise him around $2-$2.5.

And another minraise on the flop by you. After your minraise, he only has to invest $2 into what will be a $11.25 pot. Nice odds should he be on a draw of sorts. Again you have to chose.. you obviously think your hand is best here, so you either call and make sure more money goes in the pot on the turn, or reraise him properly. You have to raise over the size of the pot after his bet. So that is $5.25... so reraise him $6-$7 or something.

Now about the turn.. thing is, when they have TP or a draw (the hands that will be paying you off here) , they don't really slowplay it and then check/raise you.. you're practically pot committed here, but I think he has either a set or a made straight. The latter would mean he went in with Q9, kinda weird, so he has 88/TT/JJ is my guess. If you're lucky, QQ.. but that's about the only hand you are beating here.

Maybe check the flop for pot control? I'm lost in this hand.

Lol no.. you have AA! You have to bet, not control the pot. Maybe he has the Q. The fact that he calls on the flop and then leads the turn makes this possible. It may be a weak turn bet, but he's obviously not afraid on this board. Normally I'd say you have to raise him on the turn, but it seems to pot commit you. So you either have to push or do as you did, call, but that means you admit defeat and will be folding the hand to aggression on the river. Like this your play doesn't make much sense. Either you think your hand is good.. then raise him on the turn! Or you think he has the Q, in which case you want the showdown as cheap as possible, keep the pot under control and fold to too much aggression.

I mean, what will he have that you beat when he pushes the river do you think? AT? :P Totally unlikely that he's gonna push AT with QQ on the board there..

Also, just because you lose the hand.. it doesn't mean you played wrong or anything. Atleast, not necessarily. Here's another one fresh from my games.. (it's one of those days again)

** Game ID 786327221 starting - 2006-05-09 14:06:41
** Brockley [Hold 'em] (0.05|0.10 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- lillegull sitting in seat 1 with $1.95 [Sitting out]
- sheikspire sitting in seat 2 with $7.15
- Corolla2006 sitting in seat 3 with $9.57 [Dealer]
- jackvance sitting in seat 4 with $14.46
- wwh123 sitting in seat 5 with $9.90
- GODSQUAD sitting in seat 6 with $8.15

jackvance posted the small blind - $0.05
wwh123 posted the big blind - $0.10
** Dealing card to jackvance: Ace of Diamonds, Queen of Clubs
GODSQUAD called - $0.10
sheikspire called - $0.10
Corolla2006 raised - $0.20
jackvance raised - $0.80
wwh123 folded
GODSQUAD called - $0.80
sheikspire called - $0.80
Corolla2006 folded

** Dealing the flop: 10 of Hearts, 3 of Diamonds, Queen of Hearts
jackvance bet - $2.00
GODSQUAD went all-in - $7.35
sheikspire folded
jackvance called - $7.35
GODSQUAD shows: King of Hearts, Queen of Spades

** Dealing the turn: 4 of Hearts

** Dealing the river: 3 of Hearts
GODSQUAD wins $17.10 from the main pot

Thanks for the help guys, but now I have a few more questions.

Ok, so a min raise is bad in these (and most?) situations but when is a min raise appropriate?

Also, I'm having some issues playing draws in NLHE. I just don't know how big of a bet I can call on the flop and turn. It's not straight forward like limit and I've started to realize that I'm pretty lost in this regard. I know Implied odds play a part, but I'm not really sure how to figure that out. Let me dig up a hand history or 2.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($34.36)
MP3 ($18.90)
CO ($15)
Button ($22.60)
SB ($31.60)
Hero ($21.10)
UTG ($3.70)
UTG+1 ($10)
UTG+2 ($33.62)
MP1 ($30.56)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, A. CO posts a blind of $0.25. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.50) 5, 2, 6 (6 players)
SB bets $1, Hero calls $1, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $1, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: ($4.50) 5 (3 players)
SB bets $2, Hero calls $2, MP1 calls $2.

River: ($10.50) 3 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets $5, SB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $15.50

How much should I adjust my odds down when the board pairs? Should I even be calling on the flop?

Originally Posted by Hartlin

Hmm, I'll try and help. First things first, stop minraising, its horrible.

Hand #1: Your jacks are probably good unless someone is slowplaying and overpair, doubtful. Depends on how fishy your table is on this hand though. Someone may have hit a set on that flop and you're slowly paying them off, doubt it. Jacks were probably good.

Will do other 2 hands after school, gotta run!

Jacks no good there against most players.

Ok, so a min raise is bad in these (and most?) situations but when is a min raise appropriate?

I will min raise from time to time if the following coonditions are met:

1) I want to be called
2) I do not fear someone drawing out on me
3) I do not think my opponent will call a larger raise

This situation I find occurs most often on the river when you have the nuts, your strength is not known by your opponent, and your opponent bets into you.

Ok, so a min raise is bad in these (and most?) situations but when is a min raise appropriate?

I will min raise from time to time if the following coonditions are met:

1) I want to be called
2) I do not fear someone drawing out on me
3) I do not think my opponent will call a larger raise

This situation I find occurs most often on the river when you have the nuts, your strength is not known by your opponent, and your opponent bets into you.

Heh steve, I'd more than minraise there too. Minraising is cool if you want to confuse your opp though.. but I don't see much more practical use to be honest. Well there is one.. if a minraise is a pressure point (as it will sucker your opp into giving his stack on subsequent streets) then it is great.

About the example.

Flop, you call $1 into a $4.5 pot. That's 22%. Odds to hit are slightly lower, 18%.

Turn, you call $2 into a $10.5 pot. That's 19%. Already closer to your 18% to hit on the river.

Conclusion: ok to call here. Since if you hit, you're probably getting some more money. If he had been mortified of the flush however and would insta-fold another club, that would suck ofcourse.

On the whole, you did the right thing.

A bit more math to give you the general idea:

You ended up paying $3 for a 36% chance to win a $10.5 pot.

EV=-$3 + (36/100)x$10.5=+$0.78

So as it stands, it's a +EV decision even without any extra money on the river! Say the $5 he put in there would have been yours too if you hit, then it looks even better (this is implied odds at work here!):

EV= -$3 + (36/100)x$15.5=+$2.58

See the big difference? That's why implied odds are so important. If you have a strong sense that you'll be getting more money if you hit, you can call even worse odds.

Ok, I just confused the hell out of myself. Twice you called OVER your % to hit, and still your game ended up +EV. So I did some calculations.. it seems like your opponent can not give you bad odds to draw to a flush when there's 3 people in the pot willing to pay!

The reason is that over turn+river you have more than 1/3 to win (36%) and you're always paying less than 1/3 because 3 people pay on top of the dead money in the pot.

Interesting, I actually learned something new here. Apparently comparing it to your % chance on turn and river seperately underestimates your chances. Ok now I'm gonna have to do more math since this baffles me to no end

EDIT:
I've probably already lost everyone here and just continu talking to myself, but anyway.. it seems that, contrary to popular belief, you need to weigh your bet% towards the entire 36% over turn+river, not towards the 18% on turn and the 18% on river.

Can any math buff check this plz, it sound weird.

i'm guessing you lost all 3 of these hands. That's just my guess. At least 2 of them for sure.

First, even poker idiots generally don't push all their chips in the middle with nothing more than top pair. So, the fact that you're getting chips pushed in your face is not a good sign. 2nd when the board pairs, especially a face card, you Might want to slow down.

More importantly, however, if you are going to commit all your chips. If you Think you are ahead, then don't call someone else's bet. Push!!

If you don't think you're ahead and all you have is an overpair then don't call someone else's bet. Fold!!

This is really simple. Either you are winning or you aren't. There is no "calling" answer to this puzzle. So, that's wrong - unless you're trapping, and it's a bad idea to trap with an overpair, even AA.

An overpair to me is like a "super pair", which means it like a TP with an unbeatable kicker. However, it's still just 1 pair and can be beat by ALOT of other hands.

I return to my first point. Even idiots generally don't push unless they can beat the best pair. They will call. They may bet into you and then call your raise. But they generally don't push into a multiway pot with lots of action going on.

Let me guess
Hand 1 - And 1 I missed some of the action, UTG+1 flopped a set, and the other guy had a pair above JJ.

Hand 2 - You're up against AA or better

Hand 3 - "There's a queen in my pants."

Again, the rule is .. As long as they are calling your TPTK or overpair is good. when they start pushing back with raises then you need to think, "hmm is this person an idiot, are they desperate, or am I beat?"

Math doesn't work in the face of evidence to the contrary. Doing a calculation here is like having someone say, "I have a set, so here's my push" and you going (with face in calculator) "according to my calculations it's very unlikely that anyone made a set with that flop. Statistically it would be negative EV to call a preflop raise with that particular pair of cards..." And the guy is like "Dude! I have a set."

So you call.

There's alot of information at the poker table beyond math.

Here's a couple rules of thumb for you. If you raise preflop then the highest chance of being called is by AK, AQ, at least 2 face cards or a pocket pair. So when the board pairs a face card you may want to take that into consideration. And if you raise preflop, and bet the flop only to have someone push back into you, you might consider that they flopped a card that made a set for them. They HAVE to consider that you raised a big pocket pair. So why are they pushing? Sometimes you will see AA vs KK or even QQ preflop and the flop comes all undercards so they both get all their money in the pot. But when the betting gets drawn out like this you really have to go HMMMM. And stop paying these people off. Know when to fold.

It's interesting to notice that every one of these hands ends with
"Hero Calls". You would rather they end with "fish calls the hero"


gl

Originally Posted by stevep52

I will min raise from time to time if the following coonditions are met:

1) I want to be called
2) I do not fear someone drawing out on me
3) I do not think my opponent will call a larger raise

NO .
NO.
and NO.

1. You want to be called .. But not by everyone and their brother.

2. I do not fear someone drawing out on me? You should always fear that someone is going to suck you out. How do you know what they are attempting to do PF anyways?

3. It doesnt matter if they call or not. It matters at this point if you play correctly PF. Always Raise your hands. They will eventually get used to you raising a certain amount and start calling.


MINRAISING= I have never seen this in any Poker Book, forum, or recommended by any real poker player EVER !.

Originally Posted by fasin8ing

1. You want to be called .. But not by everyone and their brother.

Collusion is illegal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Thanks for all the advice guys, it's vey much appreciated.

For those of you who are curious,

Hand 1 I lost against pocket 4s (full house)

Hand 2 it was pocket 10s (three of a kind)

Hand 3 I lost to pocket Qs (quads)

Thanks again!

Originally Posted by fasin8ing

Originally Posted by stevep52

I will min raise from time to time if the following coonditions are met:

1) I want to be called
2) I do not fear someone drawing out on me
3) I do not think my opponent will call a larger raise

NO .
NO.
and NO.

1. You want to be called .. But not by everyone and their brother.

2. I do not fear someone drawing out on me? You should always fear that someone is going to suck you out. How do you know what they are attempting to do PF anyways?

3. It doesnt matter if they call or not. It matters at this point if you play correctly PF. Always Raise your hands. They will eventually get used to you raising a certain amount and start calling.


MINRAISING= I have never seen this in any Poker Book, forum, or recommended by any real poker player EVER !.

I fully agree. I was trying to describe a situation in response to the question - should you never min-raise. The conditions I laid have to all be present and will not occur that often and will never occur pre-flop (at least that I can see). The situation I see it happening most is on the river.

I have had situations where my 3x raise on the river was folded to. In these situation a min-raise may have generated the call I was looking for.

I was not trying to state that min-raises should be common practice just that there may be some situations, though limited, that it can be of some use.

How often do I min raise? Hardly ever. I have though used it on rare occasions where I feel an opponent is just hanging on and I am trying to draw out more chips (ex. opponent looking for flush draw on the turn river when I have the boat or quads). If for a second I think my opponent will throw in his chips, I'm putting in a larger raise.