NOT reraising KK

I've been thinking about this lately and wanted everyone's opinion here. I reraise KK about 70% of the time. Sometimes I like to trap with them and just call so I can mix it up.

But I was thinking if there were other reasons to not reraise KK. Today, I folded KK to an AI preflop re-re-reraise.

The guy in question had AKs (silly, I know). Had I had a better read I would have called for sure (he had just sat down). He did however river an Ace and beat the all-in shortstack.

Now this situation is different. I raised 4xbb, he reraised 8xbb, then I re-reraised 16xbb more, and then he went all in for 72xbb.

Here are some thoughts. I'm not saying these are correct, I'm just thinking outloud here.

Had I not re-reraised I could have easily pushed him off the pot with a nice check raise.

You can trap QQ, JJ, and TT when the flop is rags.

You don't give away the strength of your hand obviously and people will put you on a bluff or try to bluff you off the hand.

If the flop has an ace, you can get away from it pretty easily.

You don't let the all-in Ace draw out on you.

There are cons obviously, but I won't go into them here (for instance, you want to go ai preflop vs AK). What do you guys think?

I'm not sure about cash game b/c of size of pot, recklessness of opponent, etc., but I do know that in a tournament it is protfitable to push all in if need be with KK no matter what because the odds of you having KK when another player has AA is so low that is a insta push or insta call all in. Plus, if its your KK vs Ax, you are still 60-70% depending on dead cards, draws, etc. In a tourney, I am never laying down KK preflop, but I agree with sometimes not reraising preflop, as your opponenet never expects it. I know its been done to me before and I'm usually shocked to see it turned over if it goes to a post-flop all in.

I mucked KK preflop once in a brick and mortar cash game and felt like an assclown cause I let outside factors get involved (don't ask its way too embarassing)

Originally Posted by TripsChaos

I mucked KK preflop once in a brick and mortar cash game and felt like an assclown cause I let outside factors get involved (don't ask its way too embarassing)

you have to share this now

Originally Posted by TripsChaos

in a tournament it is protfitable to push all in if need be with KK no matter what because the odds of you having KK when another player has AA is so low that is a insta push or insta call all in. .. tourney, I am never laying down KK preflop

Seems kinda backward to me. In a cash game the worst that could happen is that you are in fact up against AA and reach into your pocket and buy more chips and keep playing.

In a tourney being up against AA can make you leave with $0 instead of, e.g.
$7.5 million. So if you think that's a distinct possibility it might be okay to let that go.

Hm... if I were in a cash game and had build up from 1 buyin to 10 or so, and got in a hand like this with the only other big stack, and heshe was threatening my entire night's profit and I really though prolly I was against AA, I could lay down kings. Hasn't happened yet though

So far, 6 out of 7 preflop reraises when I have KK have been AA.

I'd be up another $1200 if I had mucked thoes hands like I should have.

Originally Posted by LeFou

Seems kinda backward to me. In a cash game the worst that could happen is that you are in fact up against AA and reach into your pocket and buy more chips and keep playing.

So you're saying in a cash game, the worst thing that could happen is that you repeatedly make a costly -EV mistake? and this isn't a big deal?

He didn't say repeatedly.

Also he said it's not even close to as -EV as going up against AA in a tourney. I agree. You can always buy more chips cash game...in a tourney, you're done.

"He didn't say repeatedly."

true, but he said he would never fold kk to aa, and this situation will happen repeatedly, so i was just implying.

let me give you this situation. You have AK. you raise preflop, someone calls. the flop comes queen high, you bet, and someone else pushes. you call, because you figure you have a 20% chance of sucking out, you'll be ahead sometimes, and you can just buy more chips, its only a cash game....

?????????? am i in bizarro world?

I think that not reraising is a good play. I have been trapped before with JJ vs KK on a rag flop. Didn't see it coming.

ok ill tell my dumbass move in a casino...

So i have no problem playing 4 10 or 20 dollar sngs at a time online , and in the past I have played 3 or 4 1-2 NL tables on Full Tilt (So at least $600-800) in play at the same time, but for some odd reason I turn into a huge vagina when I play live cards with stakes like 1-2 NL min 60 max 300 at Borgata. I play with scared money, and the only time i make any money is off a big hand or an all in. Its weird, but anyway, I decide this time to not play like female sexual parts and start off strong.

So I sit down at this one table, and this kid to my left is 21, a year younger than me, nice guy, and we start talking. he goes to some college near Princeton, I went to UMD, he shows me some of his cards during hands with people before he folds, he picks up a nice pot against a huge 35yo or so fish and hes doing well. He plays some hands, but I can tell hes a little tipsy so, hes a little loose. But its pretty clear that he has become my "table buddy" - asking me about what he shoulda done after a flop, other poker talk, etc. So ive probably been playing for like 2 hours, and I picked up a nice pot my first hand on a continuation bet to the river by some guy who I think was calling me with a flush draw, hit a pair on the turn, but I hit a better pair on the river with AQ in the hole. So I give the image to this guy next to me that Im not afraid to bet with nothing, he give me some respect on the c-bet, blah blah.

So like i said about two hours in I pick up KK, and I make it a straight 22 on the button preflop after a couple limpers, so this "friend" next to me on the button makes it 90 to go... Im sittin there thinking wtf. Why would this guy raise this much? Is he trying to save me some money and making me toss away an almost dead hand b/c he has AA? Why would he raise me to take my money? I thought we were friends. why would he do that? So i feel like I have a great read on most players when they have AA, but thats only in small buy in tournies (10-20), where its easy to pick up on stuff like that (min raises preflop, limping in UTG preflop and then reraising any other raises that come in preflop, you know fishy moves that indicate big hands.) So, I tihnk forever, thinking I either need to muck this or just move it, and because I was basically sitting at the table with 1/3 of the money in my entire back account (not backroll) at the time, I laid it down b/c I was playing with scared money and also b/c i am a puss in B&M cash games. So he turns over QQ, I stand up and need to walk away, table asks,
"what did you fold, KK?

"yea"

"what? you folded KK?!!?"

nice play by me

No, not bizarro world.

I think the reason he's saying he doesn't lay down KK is because he can't put someone on AA well enough.

If you lay down KK every time someone reraises, I don't know how you can play this game.

Anyway, I think overall the -EV of KK vs AA isn't even a chink in the armor...it's still so +EV you can't really fold it without a stone cold read.

{This post has been removed}

Ok, I'm changing my answer. Bet the shit out of KK.

Especially at low limits or against fish

Out of the 13 KK's I was dealt today I got reraised twice preflop. Both were pocket Aces.. (10 & 20NL).

Quick look at PT stats: 121 times KK, 5 times reraised, 3xAA, 1x44 (!), 1x AKo.

Originally Posted by sejje

No, not bizarro world.

I think the reason he's saying he doesn't lay down KK is because he can't put someone on AA well enough.

If you lay down KK every time someone reraises, I don't know how you can play this game.

Anyway, I think overall the -EV of KK vs AA isn't even a chink in the armor...it's still so +EV you can't really fold it without a stone cold read.

Bingo sauce. Last night at this one table I was reraised 3 times preflop:
AA
Q2s
Q4o

so I'm still payin' off AA when I have to. Maybe it's different at $1,000NL ... i wouldn't know.

At full ring, ~1/24 times you have KK someone will have AA.

ok full ring i have no idea
but for 6 max unless i think toomany will get invloved in the pot i dont mind cold calling behind preflop with KK, if im in an unraisd pot it gets raised period.
Ok we can get away if its ace high flop, but i like the idea of trapping or check raising here.
Folding KK preflop is the worst thing youcan do in poker imo, pay off AA for the amount of times others make moves with lesser cards.
SO yeah, but only in six max would i consider not rerasing with KK

There are only a few hands in standard TAGG preflop play that you can make a reraise with. So if you include all the fish and rocks out there, there is usually only two hands you see people making reraises with and you're holding one of them with KK. If you consider that, you can feel pretty certain that you may not have the best hand.

Should you ever muck your KK to a reraise? Lol. NO! Are you kidding? But how about to re-reraise? Or how about a re-re-reraise? I think Cloutier says that the third raise is AA almost 100% of the time. And that guy has played a lot of poker.

So that right there is a very good reason to reraise - for information.

But here's another problem. Wouldn't it be smart to just cool call the reraise if you had AA? I know that's what I do. Why make it so obvious that you have aces when you're almost postive you're up against KK? So now you're back in the same boat as before.

Anyway, I guess I have no answers to my own post. I guess I'd rather try to outplay my opponents post flop.

When it comes to folding KK, I think the problem is that people don't trust their reads enough. They just figure most of the time their opponents won't have aces so they'll just push everytime. I think that's kinda silly, but not dumb.

Originally Posted by LeFou

Seems kinda backward to me. In a cash game the worst that could happen is that you are in fact up against AA and reach into your pocket and buy more chips and keep playing.

In a tourney being up against AA can make you leave with $0 instead of, e.g.

It's because in a tourney the blinds increase and you have a limited amount of time to make your move. I play cash games everyday for hours so I see KK all the time. Big deal if I fold one. You know what I mean?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

ok full ring i have no idea
but for 6 max unless i think toomany will get invloved in the pot i dont mind cold calling behind preflop with KK, if im in an unraisd pot it gets raised period.
Ok we can get away if its ace high flop, but i like the idea of trapping or check raising here.
Folding KK preflop is the worst thing youcan do in poker imo, pay off AA for the amount of times others make moves with lesser cards.
SO yeah, but only in six max would i consider not rerasing with KK

I think it's wise to reraise with KK if you're afraid too many people will call the raise. Which of course, is probably why you mention the difference between 6max and full ring.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

At full ring, ~1/24 times you have KK someone will have AA.

Yes, but we're not talking about the 21 times that people call your raises, we're talking about the three times that someone reraises you. And this post isn't about FOLDING KK, it's about reraising.

So unless you know for sure that the person is either a maniac or a donkey, there really aren't very many hands they can make that move with.

Therefore, why not call in order to trap the three hands you dominate, and also lose less money to the one hand that dominates you? If I have KK versus AA, I'm probably going to lose at least 50% of my stack. But hey, I saved a lot of money though, right?

But then someone might say, well you should get their money in now while you're ahead? But unless they're a donkey, they know what you have and will fold. I guess a good reason for this is to make the small pocket pairs pay more to catch sets on you. I don't know. I'm still kind of undecided.

the reason i mention not reraising KK is the hope that when the flop comes we have a chance of maximising the amount we make from the hand if our opponent hits something or trys tobluff the pot. For the amount of times our hand gets beat compared to the amount of times we may be able to hide the strangth of our hand and win the a bigger pot i thinkcold caling is and should be an option

Originally Posted by Checkways

Should you ever muck your KK to a reraise? Lol. NO! Are you kidding?
...

I play cash games everyday for hours so I see KK all the time. Big deal if I fold one.

I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what your recommendation is.
Some points have been made that I agree with
-Someone who reraises PF has AA a lot of the time. I'd put it at around 75-80%
-A PF re-reraise is, as Cloutier says, "99% pure aces". I don't actually find that this holds in very aggressive games, 6max, or certain fishy low stakes ones. You started this thread with a hand about a re-re-reraise w/AKs!
-You ought not push KK every time you're reraised. That's just your read: if you think this is one of the 20-25% that opp doesn't have AA, push. If not, don't. Call and be willing to fold without a set. If an A comes, the fold is obviously a no-brainer


Some points that I think have been made (or implied) that I don't agree with:
-"when I have KK and I'm reraised, opp has AA __% of the time." I don't get it. What you're holding doesn't matter. Look again at your data. Look for ANY reraises PF regardless of your holdings. I bet it's near the 75% figure.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

Originally Posted by LeFou

Seems kinda backward to me. In a cash game the worst that could happen is that you are in fact up against AA and reach into your pocket and buy more chips and keep playing.

So you're saying in a cash game, the worst thing that could happen is that you repeatedly make a costly -EV mistake? and this isn't a big deal?

The critical thing here is when you're pushing. You're pushing when you don't think opp has AA. Obviously it's -EV to push into aces, but suppose you read the situation right ... 2/3 times. A bit better than half.

that means (2/3 X 75%) = 50% of the time you think opp has aces and she does. You call, and play from there.
1/3 X 75% = 25% you don't think opp has aces but she does. you push and lose.
1/3 X 25% = 8% you think opp has aces but she doesn't. You call and play from there.
2/3 X 25% = 17% you don't think opp has aces and you're right. You push while dominating.

So that 25% where you push and lose is painful. But the 17% where you push when dominating -- or lure opp in for hisher stack, plus smart play in the other 58% of cases, can make up for that.

It looks like 2 cases have got under discussion, though.
1. You have KK, raise, and are reraised (above) I think it's johnny and Trips' fault that this is what's being talked about most...
2. Someone raises in front of you (the original topic)

Just about any pair is well-advised to flat call one raise PF. If you flat call with your kings (esp. in early/middle position), I think you're offering way too much to the people in back. And since a hidden set is going to crush your stack most of the time, I advise reraising with your kings at least 85% of the time in early/middle.

In late position you're much better off. An early raise and a few folds offers you a good opportunity to trap QQ/JJ/AK/AQ/etc. with your kings. But an early raise with a couple cold-callers is dangerous, and you should generally try to isolate.

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

(sigh)

Exactly my thoughts.

I like doing *sigh* better though.

Do what Mike taught us in Rounders-reraise all in and pay off Rockets.

Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

Do what Mike taught us in Rounders-reraise all in and pay off Rockets.

If you play against fish do this all the time. But good players will just laugh at you and fold their QQ.

Originally Posted by LeFou

that means (2/3 X 75%) = 50% of the time you think opp has aces and she does. You call, and play from there.
1/3 X 75% = 25% you don't think opp has aces but she does. you push and lose.
1/3 X 25% = 8% you think opp has aces but she doesn't. You call and play from there.
2/3 X 25% = 17% you don't think opp has aces and you're right. You push while dominating.

So that 25% where you push and lose is painful. But the 17% where you push when dominating -- or lure opp in for hisher stack, plus smart play in the other 58% of cases, can make up for that.

Good post. The thing that confuses me is that people assume their KK gets paid off preflop. Personally, I rarely ever see it (unless it's versus a short stack). Typically, an all-in re-raise will only be called by AA and occasionally QQ. So now what does the math look like? 70% of the time you push all in you're up against AA? Not very good.

Originally Posted by LeFou

It looks like 2 cases have got under discussion, though.
1. You have KK, raise, and are reraised (above) I think it's johnny and Trips' fault that this is what's being talked about most...
2. Someone raises in front of you (the original topic)

Just about any pair is well-advised to flat call one raise PF. If you flat call with your kings (esp. in early/middle position), I think you're offering way too much to the people in back. And since a hidden set is going to crush your stack most of the time, I advise reraising with your kings at least 85% of the time in early/middle.

In late position you're much better off. An early raise and a few folds offers you a good opportunity to trap QQ/JJ/AK/AQ/etc. with your kings. But an early raise with a couple cold-callers is dangerous, and you should generally try to isolate.

I agree with this. But when you talk about the two cases it made me realize that I made a blunder. My original post was actually about re-reraising. Meaning, you raise, someone reraises you now what? Do you call or re-reraise? I'm thinking calling may be a smarter play, I'm not sure.

I think if you lay down KK preflop, unless you have some sort of incredible read (or stats from PokerTracker that help you out, which I don't use)....you are a flippin' retard and should quit playing poker. Yeah, I've seen my fair share of KK vs. AA, but I've also seen it where my KK runs into QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, and even worse.

I reraise people all of the time if I think they're weak. Especially from the SB/BB. If I see UTG (who raises a lot preflop) make it 4x's to go, with a bunch of callers behind him.....I might make it 20-30x's the BB to go. I watch them fold all of the time.

I'm not saying there's not a place for folding KK preflop...but I've only done it twice myself. Both times the guy showed AA, so I made the correct read...but I still felt dirty and wrong for laying it down.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

I reraise people all of the time if I think they're weak. Especially from the SB/BB. If I see UTG (who raises a lot preflop) make it 4x's to go, with a bunch of callers behind him.....I might make it 20-30x's the BB to go. I watch them fold all of the time.

And you think that making a HUGE re-raise is the most +EV play here?

Do you think QQ will call? Will it pay you of on rag flop after you made it 26BB more to them preflop?

If he pushes what do you do?

If he COLD calls how do you procced on a low board?

If you wanna watch them fold and think you made a good play, make that play with another hand not KK.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

I'm not saying there's not a place for folding KK preflop...but I've only done it twice myself. Both times the guy showed AA, so I made the correct read...but I still felt dirty and wrong for laying it down.

Nobody said anything about folding KK pre-flop to a single re-raise. If they raise, re-raise them (a logic amount) to see where you stand, if they push usually believe them.

If you raise and get re-raised, dont make it easy for them by pushing. Give them the chance to make a mistake.


What stakes are you playing/talking about here?