Not playing suited connectors. Bad?

I'm still struggling with this game.

I've noticed I've stopped playing suited connectors altogether at my low limit games. Does anyone else think this is ok for now? Or am I giving up good cards here?

I play Empire $25. I love the smaller blinds, by the way.

It's fine to play stronger starting hands until you're more comfortable with your postflop play.

OK.

Perhaps let's change the direction of the post. How to play suited connectors post-flop.

Check fold if you miss, I think that's clear.
What if you hit bottom pair?
Middle pair?
Top pair?

Inside straight obviously, look to pot odds.
Same with shotgun straight.

I hit these hands so infrequently, that I just stopped playing them. I've read Doyle's book, and he clearly thinks these are big winning hands!!
Am I missing something?

I'd only play them if they hit big, i.e. flush draw, two pair, trips, OESD.

Originally Posted by EasyT

OK.

Perhaps let's change the direction of the post. How to play suited connectors post-flop.

Check fold if you miss, I think that's clear.
What if you hit bottom pair?
Middle pair?
Top pair?

Inside straight obviously, look to pot odds.
Same with shotgun straight.

I hit these hands so infrequently, that I just stopped playing them. I've read Doyle's book, and he clearly thinks these are big winning hands!!
Am I missing something?

I think so. Reread the section on how to play these hands after the flop.

There are so many posts like this...how do I play X hand.

You become a good player when you know what to do even when your hand doesn't hit. Anybody can play the nuts.

So what do I do with my 54s vs one opponent when the flop comes 10 9 9? You use all tools available to you to find out what your opponent has and how they play and act accordingly.

That's how you need to play. A very basic strategy if you can't do the above is...come into multiway pots cheaply with suited connectors. Fold if you miss.

The reason doyle says they are winning hands is because when you do hit, you make a straight or a flush, very strong hands. Also the rare fullhouse or trips here makes it hard for an opponent to put you on a hand like that and they'll often pay you off.

I would not get rid of these hands all together, dont play them from all positions, only play them when you are button or button +2 max (this will get you into playing them more) and if you really want to cut them down dont play all suited connectors, play 67s and higher. Yes these are big money maker hands, say someone has KK and raise 3xbb and you call in LATE position with T9s, this isnt the best thing to do but for my example i will use this situation. The flop comes 876 or even 87J and if he checks you bet he will most likley reraise if you come back over the top, then your a stupid fish to him with AJ and there he goes and pushes in all your chips and then boom you double up and crack Kings. The reason they are so good is because they so many different things you can do with them, over any starting hand they have have the most options given the right flop, i.e OESFD.

I don't play these often if at all because it gets me into trouble betting on draws. The worst is when you have say 67s and you get 2 suited and a pair but no straight draw. Somebody minbets and you have to make a decision. Or you have 67s and you hit the flush on the flop. The next card is say 2s. You have the flush but anyone with an Ace is in the hand so you get the 2nd best flush. These are all what-if scenarios but they happen. These are hands that you hope you hit the flush but when you do you are scared you don't have the best flush.

I only play these if I'm in the blinds in cash games and can limp. Otherwise, the times I do connect barely recover from the times I fold on the turn or lose a showdown. Maybe I'm missing out but these hands have done poorly for me in cash games.

Originally Posted by TopThis

The reason doyle says they are winning hands is because when you do hit, you make a straight or a flush, very strong hands. Also the rare fullhouse or trips here makes it hard for an opponent to put you on a hand like that and they'll often pay you off.

Also these are easy hands to fold if you miss, you will lose less money with these cards than you will with ka aa kk..

I'll usually bet preflop with suited connectors, when I miss the flop it all just depends on the other players and what I think they might have and what they think I might have. You've already started by representing a strong hand.

Is Doyle talking Ring or Tourny or both? I play these in tourny play more often - for some reason I have an easier time folding a questionable flop. That could be why I suck at Ring.

I believe Doyle is talking about ring games.

One of the important things Doyle mentions is that he wants to be head's up against someone with AA or KK who likes to slowplay big pairs. This way, he is more likely to have the only straight or flush if it hits. And he is more likely to get cheap or free cards to draw to his big hands.

If you're trying to bust someone with these hands, I don't think you want to be 7-handed at the flop.

MonyB you suggested only playing 67s and higher. Why?

Isn't the value of suited connecters in making a straight a flush or 2 pair, not a pair of 7s compared to a pair of 4s. I understand playing45s to TJs for more straight options but why is 67s worth playing when 45s isn't? in fact wouldn't playing 45 possibly give you more action if you get the wheel and somebody with aces cant put you on it? Could you elaborate more please. Thanks.

Originally Posted by TopThis

There are so many posts like this...how do I play X hand.

You become a good player when you know what to do even when your hand doesn't hit. Anybody can play the nuts.

I just have to love this post. I got some guy tilting tonight when I took half his stack after pushing based on his weakness. He folded and ranted and raved about how f'ing lucky I was and that I had to be a horrible player because he usually has a big hand and such. I tormented him a bit more and he busted out and then left the table...first time I've done the whole trash talking thing. It was fun.

Originally Posted by Zangief

If you're trying to bust someone with these hands, I don't think you want to be 7-handed at the flop.

I tend to think exactly the opposite! If you make the straight or flush, chances are good that you'll be the only one. It happens that you're not, but often you are. It's better to have a lot of people in there to make the pot that much bigger.

- Jeffrey

yea stick to playing suited connectors in late position. They just can't stand a raise then a possible reraise.

you want to be in big multi way pots because they are the only way you're going to get pot odds. If you're heads up against AA you're going to have to flop a straight/flush if you are going to be able to profitably continue because your opponent may well be betting the ranch. Also 45 is worse than 89 because 45 is going to be the arse end of most straights you can make, if 678 comes you can't drive the betting and if a 9 or 10 comes you are just hoping no one has one. Also 45 is trying to make a wheel but as soon as the ace comes down the betting is going to be that much higher from people who have a pair of aces, 89 can make a straight with innocuous looking cards.

Situation: 2nd hand of an SnG. I'm in SB with 56s. Everyone before me limps, so I do as well. Two of my suit come on the flop. Checks around the table to a minbet called by half the people. Another garbage card comes except that it matches one of the other cards to increase my hand value to an OES-F draw. Checks around and one person bets the pot. My odds were slightly against, but implied odds were definitely there. I call. Another of my suit comes on the river. I check to the bettor. He bets the pot again. I check-raise the new pot size. He calls and is left with 60 chips, giving me a huge lead over the table with 1940 vs. several 1k stacks.

Just an example...
- Jeffrey

thanks legend

I'll stop after this...just driving the point home.

Hand #4697391-1326 at Acre (No Limit Hold'em)
Shak is at seat 0 with $24.75.
norcal218 is at seat 1 with $13.40.
AlizeNike777 is at seat 2 with $13.75.
dangerb is at seat 3 with $5.75.
jaheath is at seat 4 with $10.
Bearsfan_54 is at seat 5 with $33.50.
dennis46 is at seat 6 with $45.25.
jennplay is at seat 7 with $7.75.
JGB146 is at seat 8 with $5.
smoke_1 is at seat 9 with $17.
The button is at seat 2.

dangerb posts the small blind of $.10.
jaheath posts the big blind of $.25.

JGB146: 9c 8c

Pre-flop:
Bearsfan_54 folds. dennis46 folds. jennplay folds.
JGB146 calls. smoke_1 calls. Shak folds.
norcal218 calls. AlizeNike777 calls. dangerb calls.
jaheath checks.

Flop (board: 8d Th 7c):
dangerb checks. jaheath checks. JGB146 checks.
smoke_1 bets $.25. norcal218 calls. AlizeNike777
folds. dangerb calls. jaheath folds. JGB146
calls.

Turn (board: 8d Th 7c 3c):
dangerb checks. JGB146 checks. smoke_1 bets $.80.
norcal218 calls. dangerb calls. JGB146 calls.

River (board: 8d Th 7c 3c 2c):
dangerb checks. JGB146 checks. smoke_1 bets $4.
norcal218 goes all-in for $12.10. dangerb folds.
JGB146 goes all-in for $3.70. smoke_1 folds.
norcal218 is returned $8.10 (uncalled).

Showdown:
norcal218 shows Js 7s.
norcal218 has Js 7s 8d Th 7c: a pair of sevens.
JGB146 shows 9c 8c.
JGB146 has 9c 8c 7c 3c 2c: flush, nine high.

Hand #4697391-1326 Summary:
$.80 is raked from a total pot of $17.40.
$.80 is raked from the main pot of $16.80.
$0 is raked from side pot #1 of $.60.
JGB146 wins the main pot $16 with flush, nine high.
norcal218 wins the side pot $.60 with a pair of sevens.


Note: interestingly enough, my pair of 8s had everyone beat...still, the flush was a nice bonus!

in a turney

limp 67s late pos, flopping flush draw, folding to overbet... limp 87s late pos, miss completly, fold... limp 67s again flopping THE FLUSH DRAW... he small bets... u call... he bets a little more.. u call... and the river is a blank "doh"... limp 56s late pos Button goes all in u fold... limp T9s latepos you get a strdraw and bets it cus you know the two players in the pot to be weak fold/calling stations... one of them calls.. u miss turn "doh" so you bet again cus you think hes actually drawing here! he calls "doh" and u miss "doh" and your desperado river bluff goes to hell cus hes now allin!

And at the very best you now have 900 chips while rockdady on you left seeing aproxemently 5 % of the flops .. counting the blinds... have 1350!

Now the blinds is hunting you for another 200 a pice and the bubbel becomes an allinfest... At last after 1h you loose with your AQ pushing and called by luckylusie bigstack with 6000 in chips... those 300 chips was what could have stoped her from calling you down with crap.

over and out ;p
(sry spelling, Im a SWEDE) btw Corey I saw those bobes down town today!

JeffreyGB, I was looking at your hand history. Why did you call the allin when Norcal check/called all the way down to the river and then came alive? Did you have an excellent read or something?

Originally Posted by Joke

in a turney

limp 67s late pos, flopping flush draw, folding to overbet... limp 87s late pos, miss completly, fold... limp 67s again flopping THE FLUSH DRAW... he small bets... u call... he bets a little more.. u call... and the river is a blank "doh"... limp 56s late pos Button goes all in u fold... limp T9s latepos you get a strdraw and bets it cus you know the two players in the pot to be weak fold/calling stations... one of them calls.. u miss turn "doh" so you bet again cus you think hes actually drawing here! he calls "doh" and u miss "doh" and your desperado river bluff goes to hell cus hes now allin!

And at the very best you now have 900 chips while rockdady on you left seeing aproxemently 5 % of the flops .. counting the blinds... have 1350!

Now the blinds is hunting you for another 200 a pice and the bubbel becomes an allinfest... At last after 1h you loose with your AQ pushing and called by luckylusie bigstack with 6000 in chips... those 300 chips was what could have stoped her from calling you down with crap.

over and out ;p
(sry spelling, Im a SWEDE) btw Corey I saw those bobes down town today!

All those limps would have cost you a total of 200 chips at most. Probably less assuming it's not late in the tournament. The bluff attempt went bad, and continuing it when you'd already gotten a large part of his stack in was a horrid idea. If called on the flop bet check the turn there and only call a raise if you have the odds. The description above describes some level of misplay, and in several cases incomplete information (what were the stack sizes? what were the sizes of the bet relative to the pot? If you're saying that calling a minbet with a flush draw is a mistake, well, you're mistaken).

Yes, playing suited connectors opens you up for making mistakes post flop. So you have to play them carefully. But if you do it right, they can pay off huge.

- Jeffrey

That was not one of my hand histories.. more a possbile turney if you play to many hands. In the begining of a sng it feels like the more hands you play the larger is the odds of you getting burned against an idiot who got lucky and won with 25 vs 75 % odds or something. I have been doing better when I chill out the first 20 minutes and start to gamble up when it gets shorthanded and reads are more importent. I dont think suited connectors are + EV other then the very first levels. And most of the time your there with just a draw, and if they dont hit your stack will be hurt. Limping connectors and chasing draws might make the bigstack in one sng but it feels like you loose 200 chips in 5 sngs for every one "bigstack" experience. And those 200 are often the difference between in or out when the stacksize gets more importent in the end.

But ofcourse it might just be bad luck with those 67s and such... Over and out!

i think that suited connectors are some of the hands you love to see a flop with..i like to play them

Perfect example - saturday night, limp in from button +1 w/ 78s. Flop comes 888. Wow! Got paid big b/c the button had pocket 5's. I know this is a RARE example but if I missed it's an easy hand to get away from.