No respect for raises

The weekly live games I play with my buddies are sooooo different from any online games I've been involved in.

The main difference is that there seems to be very little if any respect for any raises made (particularly preflop). This holds especially true when the blinds are still low.

A very experienced player who has just joined our group seems to agree with my observation too.

What usually happens is like a snowball effect. One person raises, then one person calls and then another and so on and so on. It doesn't really seem to matter much about the size of the raise either.

Any raise that is 3-6 x the BB will usually be called by 4-6 people at a 9 person table when the blinds are still relatively low.

Even huge raises like 10 or more x the BB will usually be called by one or two people.

What ends up happening are a ton of bad beats. As you can imagine many guys are playing very marginal hands alot of the time.

You would think that overall the guys who are playing tight aggressive style would overcome all this loose play. Isn't this what the odds say? I know the odds aren't anything written in stone but you would think in the long run guys who are playing better cards regularly would come out ahead.

Instead our games are turning into crap shoots. If only a one or two guys called these raises then I'm sure things would make more sense but when 5 or 6 guys call then its almost impossible to put anyone on a hand.

An example from last night. The blinds were real low $1/$1.50. I'm on the button with 3 limpers in front of me. I have JJ and raise $20! I get 4 callers including the small and big blind.

I end up losing my entire stack to a guy who's only played twice ever holding 44 when he hits his set on the flop. We all ended up showing cards at the showdown and the other hands were A3o, KTs, J9s.

I need help guys how do I deal with this type of game or do I just find others to play with.

This may help: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=1230

Here's something it took me a while to learn about "small stakes" holdem, which is what I call games where people care less about the money they are putting into the pot than just playing a few hands.

In these games, even AA will not win the majority of the time. It might win 1/3 of the time. That means 2/3 of the time you are losing with the best hand you can be dealt preflop!

However, when you win, you win big pots. This means huge variance, and you cannot overcome that variance in a single night of a home game seeing *at most* 30 hands per hour. We see about 20 per hour in our game.

As an extreme example, think of buying a lottery ticket for a payoff of $1 million with a 1 in 100,000 chance of winning. This is a huge +EV play for you, but you will have to play for a very long time and lose a lot of money to realize your earnings.

That's what happens when you play in these games. You win less often, but when you win, you win big. Be glad that Mr. 72o finished as the big winner. That will just encourage him to play the same way the next time.

Incidentally, in games like this, it is usually a good idea to play more drawing hands since you usually have odds to draw to a big hand. This is even more true if your opponents will give you cheap looks at the turn and river. (A key reason that people don't respect preflop raises is that they don't think about the size of the pot, and they sometimes will place inappropriately sized bets when they have a good hand. One guy at my home game will routinely bet a quarter into a 3 or 4 dollar pot when he has a hand as good as two pair or even trips, allowing me to draw even to gutshot straights)

Originally Posted by ShadySully

What usually happens is like a snowball effect. One person raises, then one person calls and then another and so on and so on. It doesn't really seem to matter much about the size of the raise either.

Any raise that is 3-6 x the BB will usually be called by 4-6 people at a 9 person table when the blinds are still relatively low.

i have actually noticed this quite a bit online in a lot of SNG's during the first two levels (when the blinds are so small).

when the blinds are 10/15, a lot of people will call up to a 10xBB raise, when the blinds are 100/200, a 2xBB raise folds most people.

in games like this, i'll play very tightly when so many are quick to call a raise, and be very careful with your top pair top kicker (not the best hand with 5 people seeing the flop). the good thing, if you hit a big hand, you can typically triple or quadruple up.

this post is just to have 3 asses in a row

There may be your problem right there. Playing with friends leads to loose games. Especially if not everyone is as into poker as you. When I play against my friends it feels more like lotto than poker. Friendships can often interfere with the quality of a game.

Just my take on it. I'm not antisocial or anything. I just enjoy busting strangers rather than close friends.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

In these games, even AA will not win the majority of the time. It might win 1/3 of the time. That means 2/3 of the time you are losing with the best hand you can be dealt preflop!

Even at "No fold'em" limt tables I have around a 2/3 win rate with AA. If an entire 9 or 10 person table takes their hand all the way to showdown I think you still win around 1/3 of the time with Aces. The key is if you're playing loose NLHE to not try to be cute by slow playing them pre-flop. Just play 'em fast, they'll find a reason to call.

However Big Slick is a different story entirely...

Yes, 1/3 is an exaggeration, and I pulled it from the results based on ten hands taken to showdown. The point is that AA wins significantly less in multipots, and it helps one avoid tilt to realize that you will win fewer but bigger pots in such situations.

Is the 2/3 win rate you cite at showdown only, or does it include uncalled hands? My experience is that people tend to ignore uncalled hands when they talk about the suckout rate they see against AA.

This is my results with AA in 1/2 6max which is quite close to no foldem and includes uncalled hands.

--------Dealt--win %-----won------won per hand
1- AA - 108 - 75.93% - $446.99 - $4.14

taken from my post on hand winners / losers over 20k of hands.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=997

I think Moe hit it on the head, and its something I've been thinking about too. You just don't play nearly enough hands in a single night to ensure that the best player will come out on top. You'll have to look at it over the long run of over 10-20 home games..

It can be frustrating. The people I play with are beginners in every sense of the word. They make the party poker clowns look like seasoned experts. They know nothing about the theory of poker, or that there even is a theory. They have no concept whatsoever of pot odds or the size of a bet relative to the pot. They always bet the minimum or close to it, no matter how big the pot is. I have to admit, its a major blow to my ego when I lose to players of that caliber, but at the same time I realize that it is bound to happen.

All I can tell you is to wait until you have a monster and then bet absolutely huge. If they are anything like my people, they will think you're trying to "buy the pot" (they love that phrase), and someone will call.

I hosted my weekly game last night. Toward the end of the night, I bet $8 on the turn after catching top two pair. This is a $10 buy-in cash game, and that was easily the biggest bet of the night. I got two callers!! One had a lower two pair, and the other had a flush draw. River completes the flush, and I'm pretty much wiped out. Oh well..

But what irked me to no end is that the players started talking about how it was foolish of me to bet that much with the threat of a flush on the board.. hahahaha. They asked me what I was thinking. I just shook my head and smiled and said "A large bet in that situation is the correct play."

Can't wait until next week!!!

Hey Mo, did you ever get a shuffler for your home game?? Do you use two decks and have the small blind shuffle during play??

Sorry, I just have to agree with Mo on one other aspect of his post.

Draw hands are huge in these games. Typically you will be able to get to the river very cheaply. I play any type of draw hand, even low unsuited one gappers. That probably isn't profitable, but its not as unprofitable as it would normally be, and I'm really just trying to have fun with these home games.

No, I never bought a shuffler. We've been trading off shuffling between those of us who are reasonably competent at it.

Originally Posted by TheNatural

It can be frustrating. The people I play with are beginners in every sense of the word. They make the party poker clowns look like seasoned experts. They know nothing about the theory of poker, or that there even is a theory. They have no concept whatsoever of pot odds or the size of a bet relative to the pot. They always bet the minimum or close to it, no matter how big the pot is. I have to admit, its a major blow to my ego when I lose to players of that caliber, but at the same time I realize that it is bound to happen.

NO Shyt! This is exactly the type of thing I've been faced with.

The guy who wiped me out last week is a total moron when it comes to poker. He doesn't give a rats a$$ about winning he just comes expecting to give his money away. He's there to drink, smoke pot and be social. He'll fold a hand regardless of what it is just so he can go have a smoke break.

Here is one hand that I saw him play. There were three people in on the pot all the way to the showdown. The community cards were: A, Q, 10, 9, 6. So that's two straights, a flush and some high cards showing. He goes all-in and he's holding pocket 4's. All-in with 6th pair!

The same pair of 4's that beat my JJ's a few hands earlier. When we asked him why he would do that he says, "Well 4's won big for me earlier."

We all had a good laugh. However I could've cried when I saw the guy who beat him stacking up all my chips. I only saw about 8 hands that night. I can't wait until next week either!

Anyhow, thanks for all the advice guys. I think my problem stems from the fact that I've been trying to change my style. I've been playing really tight in the past with a bunch of guys who play quite loose. My record has been pretty good. I've been in the money plenty but have only won a few games.

I saw an interview with David Negreanu (sp?) and he was talking about how all these really tight/technically sound players may get deep into a tournament but they will never win. In order to win one should pick and choose moments to take chances and do things that aren't technically "right".

I guess I've been trying to play more aggressively as of late but maybe choosing the wrong moments

So to sum up playing with the no fold'em crowd one should:

1. Play tighter
2. Bluff less if at all.
3. Choose to see cheap cards over bluffing when you miss the flop
4. Bet huge when you get a monster someone is going to call.
5. Realize that draw hands can be more profitable if you can see the river for relatively cheap.

Any others?

I think this really depends on the situation. I used to play a regular home game NL tourney (2-3 in a night) with $25 buyin. I came out up $50-150 every night because I was able to counter the various personalities at the table. One player, as soon as the blinds got quasi dangerious, went all in 3/4 hands, absolutely demolishing the table. He never got called correctly (viz. the short stacks wouldn't take a stand) when he went into this mode, and ended up placing first in half our tourneys (usually knocking me out heads up with a string of all ins).

If your game doesn't vary from week to week, then I think the strategy already cooked up is pretty sound. However, you can't fall into a rut (they might and probably will catch on).

Several months into our homegame, the aggressive guy quit playing aggressively, and he started losing a bunch. The dynamic of the entire table changed. You've ultimately got to play "the mood."