No More Mr. Nice Guy

I was wondering if anyone had any exercises or tips for training or preparing the mind for poker.

Dan Harrington’s book has recently made me far tighter and weaker than I need to be. I’m constantly in fear of my opponents and I can’t help thinking I’m beat. So I’m reading Doyle’s book again in an attempt to revive my mean streak. Dan’s book (Harrington On Hold ‘em) wasn’t a complete waste of time for those interested in getting it and maybe it’ll work better for some people more than others.

So I need to overcome this mental barrier BUT I don’t want to overdo it and become a major donkey. How?

(I've expanded on this below...)

Not sure what stakes you play but ever think about dropping down a level or two and playing LAG to get a better feel for postflop? This could help you loosen up a tad. Also make sure to raise more in later positions which will make your vpip/pfr look more loose.

Originally Posted by JoschMH

Dan Harrington’s book has recently made me far tighter and weaker than I need to be. I’m constantly in fear of my opponents and I can’t help thinking I’m beat.

I love this. It's great because it's so believable.

When you're playing smaller stakes (I assume you do, since HOH strategy blows for your games), stop overestating your opponents. You can't assume every check to be a trap; take a check for what it is- weakness. You can't assume that your opponents are as smart as you; they WILL go broke with a pair, they WILL play in a very obvious manner, they WILL shove on a three-tone board without a flush, etc.

This may be hard to do given the 'fear' of you opponents having stronger holdings (i.e. Harrington tells you not to reraise w/o AK+ , aces, when a donk is merely shoving with 33 you fold in fear...). Just press the call /raise button more often with what you consider "marginal" holdings (like TP weak kicker). You'll soon discover your "marginal" hands are the nuts at the donkstakes.

In short, bite your lip and call on turn/river more often. The showdowns you'll win will act as postive reinforcement.

Edit: This just made me think of something else: Has anyone ever noticed that, online or live, when player wins a big pot, or a couple of consecutive pots, he might go on hot streak? I'm pretty sure that it's not necessarily the cards, but confidence. Make some marginal calls, try some bluffs with air (in the right spots of course). It becomes a lot easier.

I think you probably didn't understand alot of the concepts behind what he was saying in HoH. If you go back and read through, but try and think about why he is giving certain pieces of advice rather than what the specific advice is you will find it alot more useful. HoH is written for mid-high stakes tournament games so much of the advice on how to play specific hands will be wrong. The thought process he uses to come up with his conclusions will be very relevant though.
At lower stakes you are (usually) going to find players playing much loser ranges than in the really big tournaments so you need to adjust your own ranges accordingly. FWIW I think HoH is a great book but you do need to think about how it applies to your game rather than just follow one line rules.

Thx for the help. I know it’s an obstacle I need to overcome… and maybe call when I feel like it’s a bad idea. Maybe experiment and see what happens… I don’t really mind losing if I can learn something from it.

I’ve noticed that. It’s called a RUSH right? I’ve had ‘em before… my longest was something like fifteen hands. LOL If only poker was always that easy.

Here’s some more detail. I play no limit hold ‘em, SNG in the micro stake. Maybe Dan didn’t intend the book to help those in the lower stakes. I don’t know… it could be a factor. I’ve heard that bad beats etc… r more common in the lower stakes anyway. I mean, I’ve probably experienced this first hand, well I have. I experience at least one bad beat a day out of maybe five SNGs.

In fact I’ll be honest. I’ve been losing a lot ever since I started real money. I made 95% profit on play money in the low stake SNG. I don’t know how much of an achievement this is but I was winning consistently. Now the real money’s different and I don’t really know how. People still consistently make mistakes, take terrible risks and so on but I can’t stop losing.

Other than the Harrington thing, I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I’ve read a lot and I have one year’s experience. I have a very analytical mind but a terrible temperament. It’s something I’m working on and I think I’m making progress. I know which hands to play and which hands not to play, I know pot odds, I know different types of player and how to play them, I know I need to change things once in a while; I know every aspect. Sometimes I’ll lose and know I’ve made a mistake. I experience a lot of (what I perceive to be) bad beats and what I call ‘Unavoidable losses’. For example… I haven’t had a hand in forever, I catch QQ, make a raise, a loose player reraises me all in and I call, he shows KK and I lose the pot. It’s not a bad beat but what can I do?

Maybe I’m not a bad player and these losses are an aspect of the micro stakes? BUT then why did I do so well on the play money?

I don’t know. I’m getting kind of tired of it and sometimes I think poker’s not for me. It’s irritating. It’s like the only thing I’ve ever done well at and now it’s gone.

Sorry this may be a bit harsh, but there is some help at the end.

I was at my buddy's place last night for a x mas party, and his 13 year old son was playing on Full Tilt play money poker (they have a Mac). He was sitting at a table playing a S&G against 2 of his friends at a 10 handed table. My sister plays play money S&G's on stars and I can't get her to fold an A until it misses on the river. I am pretty sure there are seniors in homes with no money and no families playing S&G's on the play money tables. Why the hell would you think play money tables will translate into real money tables. For one thing, you will not play the same with money on the line, we can already see that by what you write. playing Aggressive with play chips and playing Scared with your money is the problem, not HOH. You need to re read HOH and you need to learn to play poker by the numbers, odds and positions Dan Harrington was talking about. If you read just HOH1 you should be able to smoke the micro stakes games. If you read HOH2 you should be able to smoke the small stakes games.

GL, you will figure it out, but please don't think you were a good player because you beat Grandpa and little Mikey on the play money tables. You can be a good player. REad the stickys here, re read HOH 1 & 2 and start folding, folding and more folding. You can beat them.

I would also say maybe you should post a few hands in the S&G forum. Post the hands that you lose on. Post three hands from the tournament that you actually played past the turn. WE may be able to help with some things.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I would also say maybe you should post a few hands in the S&G forum. Post the hands that you lose on. Post three hands from the tournament that you actually played past the turn. WE may be able to help with some things.

I agree with this. Post some hands or full tourneys in the SNG forum and we'll take a look.

Also re bad beats, take a look at this post that I put together, it will help to get bad beats in perspective: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...c.php?p=576740

lol bigspenda you're such an ass

but yeah it's true and gl

Originally Posted by JoschMH

Maybe I’m not a bad player and these losses are an aspect of the micro stakes?

No I promise you are a bad player . All games get harder as the competition gets tougher. Poker is no different. Thats ok though because you still have plenty of time to learn to beat these games, and you are doing it the right way and starting from the bottom up. When you finally do crack it you will become a winning player at higher stakes and you will make up what youve lost pretty quickly (at least thats what usually happens). Dont make the mistake of thinking you cant win because the players are so bad that you cant read them or w/e and then move up where it will be easier...because it wont.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

lol bigspenda you're such an ass
but yeah it's true and gl

<---------------------------------------------------------------------------


look again

those avatars always confuse the hell outta me too

I don’t think I’m a bad player and I know I have more to learn. And I know all this. HOH is a fine book and I’ve learnt from it. I never said it was a bad book or whatever. I was simply stating the effect it had on me. It’s not that I didn’t understand it. I can understand it fine but the style didn’t work for me. Maybe it didn’t take a lot of skill to beat the play money players but it took some otherwise I would’ve been consistently losing instead of winning.

And like I said, I know when I’ve made a mistake. Anyway… thx for the words and don’t worry. I’ll fix it.

Josh,

don't take anything said above the wrong way. Its just that most people when they first find FTR are bad players.

And if you're losing at micro stakes then i'm afraid you're a bad a player....luckily though you've come to the right place to become a better/winning player.

Read all the info in the beginners forum, put some Sn'Gs hand histories up for people like Tiapan and others to comment on. And then see how you improve.

We've all been there mate. i was consistantly losing till i found and read all the stuff on FTR.
Now (including a few drunken episodes) i'm building my bankroll slowly but surely, knowing i'm a winning player.

See you at the tables

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

lol bigspenda you're such an ass
but yeah it's true and gl

<---------------------------------------------------------------------------


look again

lol, I read the whole thing and thought it was Spends too

Maybe I'm spending too much time talking to Spenda in Vent.

PokerStars Game #13931037986: Tournament #70711606, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/12/17 - 21:05:39 (ET)
Table '70711606 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Johnsy (1475 in chips)
Seat 3: All-id now (2010 in chips)
Seat 4: BugsyBoy (920 in chips)
Seat 5: mrs50murf (3895 in chips)
Seat 6: ky_redneck52 (1645 in chips)
Seat 7: Josch M H (1055 in chips)
Seat 8: klop0007 (2500 in chips)
ky_redneck52: posts small blind 50
Josch M H: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
ky_redneck52: posts small blind 50
Josch M H: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Josch M H [Qs Ks]
klop0007: folds
Johnsy: folds
All-id now: raises 100 to 200
BugsyBoy: folds
mrs50murf: folds
ky_redneck52: folds
Josch M H: raises 400 to 600
All-id now: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [Ad 9d 3s]
Josch M H: bets 455 and is all-in
All-id now: calls 455
*** TURN *** [Ad 9d 3s] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [Ad 9d 3s 4h] [Ac]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Josch M H: shows [Qs Ks] (a pair of Aces)
All-id now: shows [Ah Js] (three of a kind, Aces)
All-id now collected 2160 from pot

Okay so I was made the short stack early on when a donkey called twice against the odds to catch on me. I came back but made a little mistake on one hand which cost me 100 or 200 chips (I can’t remember). Then I hadn’t seen a decent hand in a while. I’d been getting things like Q3, 72 etc… This player had been raising a lot, like every other hand and showing some wild cards like A6 and so on. So I’m not going to fold KQ and I don’t want to call his raise and let him catch on me with his random cards so I reraise… by then I’m committed to the pot anyway. Maybe I should’ve gone all in but he still would’ve called. As it happens, he had AJ and I lost. What could I do differently?

Nothing, you made a move against a donkey who is basically raising any two cards and unfortunately you ran into a decent hand, which unfortunately happens but as it was you weren't that big of a dog going into the flop.

Shit happens sometimes the fish and donkeys catch cards

Yeh I know… well this is a small example of what happens to me constantly yet everyone on here’s calling me a bad player. Well I have discovered one problem I have. I speed a lot, if y’know what I mean. I sometimes do things without thinking and then I think ‘Shit, I should’ve checked’ or something. How can I control this and slow down?

Here's one or two more with explanations.

PokerStars Game #13932442543: Tournament #70717360, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/12/17 - 22:18:30 (ET)
Table '70717360 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 2: Johnsy (1220 in chips)
Seat 3: xºDòNt-Tryºx (2310 in chips)
Seat 4: uberSL (1666 in chips)
Seat 5: Josch M H (1780 in chips)
Seat 6: Jupiter33 (4554 in chips)
Seat 7: bajangreek (1970 in chips)
Johnsy: posts small blind 75
xºDòNt-Tryºx: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Johnsy: posts small blind 75
xºDòNt-Tryºx: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Josch M H [Ts Kh]
uberSL: folds
Josch M H: raises 400 to 550
Jupiter33: folds
bajangreek: raises 1420 to 1970 and is all-in
Johnsy: folds
xºDòNt-Tryºx: folds
Josch M H: calls 1230 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [8s Td 6h]
*** TURN *** [8s Td 6h] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [8s Td 6h Ks] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Josch M H: shows [Ts Kh] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
bajangreek: shows [Tc Ah] (a pair of Tens)
Josch M H collected 3785 from pot

I’m not proud of this one but I think I’m entitled to the nice side of a bad beat once in a while considering I’m on the bad side of ‘em almost every day.

Before this hand I’d lost 1500 chips and I really don’t know how. I kept catching hands like pocket pairs and suited connectors but completely missing the board or I’d catch middle pair and someone would raise me, that kind of thing. So K10 was the best hand I’d seen in a while (aside from the connectors and small pairs I mentioned). I need to start making some chips back so I raised… what’s the point in calling here? He reraised me all in for the second time in the space of five min and I didn’t think I could fold here. I’d only have 1200 chips left or 8 big blinds. He’d be frequently reraising and he looked to be on tilt after some bad beats.

PokerStars Game #13932817582: Tournament #70717360, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2007/12/17 - 22:37:49 (ET)
Table '70717360 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 5: Josch M H (6675 in chips)
Seat 6: Jupiter33 (6825 in chips)
Josch M H: posts the ante 25
Jupiter33: posts the ante 25
Josch M H: posts small blind 100
Jupiter33: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Josch M H [Qh Js]
Josch M H: raises 500 to 700
Jupiter33: calls 500
*** FLOP *** [2h 7d 4s]
Jupiter33: bets 600
Josch M H: raises 1200 to 1800
Jupiter33: calls 1200
*** TURN *** [2h 7d 4s] [Kd]
Jupiter33: checks
Josch M H: bets 2000
Jupiter33: calls 2000
*** RIVER *** [2h 7d 4s Kd] [7h]
Jupiter33: checks
Josch M H: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jupiter33: shows [7c Qd] (three of a kind, Sevens)
Josch M H: mucks hand
Jupiter33 collected 9050 from pot

This is later in the same game. He’d been calling, betting, raising and reraising and hey… he can’t have a hand every hand can he? In hindsight I know I forced this and I could’ve called or folded. It’s like I have this flow of adrenaline and I make hasty decisions before thinking it through. That’s something I’ll fix.

hand 1 I woulda folded after the shove

Hand 2, shit happens donkeys call with middle pair and make stupid preflop calls with shitty cards.

Variance happens get used to it, its how we make our money, if there was no variance the donkeys and fish would never win and would eventually stop playing

Yea, first off the information required to actually analyze these hands is missing. Positions, stack sizes and blind levels are all important. Also, these are the most important things stressed in HOH so to say you read and understand it but not give those details tells me you may not have.

Secondly, I think I fold all 3 of these and probably more hands that you may be playing. If these are the good hands your showing us, you may have some bigger problems that need fixing. Your making some bad bets at crucial times, and may not understand some things about chip values and early stages of a tournament. just judging by your comments, you are way to eager to win hands and not tourneys. Why are you playing these hands at this time in the tournament.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Yea, first off the information required to actually analyze these hands is missing. Positions, stack sizes and blind levels are all important. Also, these are the most important things stressed in HOH so to say you read and understand it but not give those details tells me you may not have.

Secondly, I think I fold all 3 of these and probably more hands that you may be playing. If these are the good hands your showing us, you may have some bigger problems that need fixing. Your making some bad bets at crucial times, and may not understand some things about chip values and early stages of a tournament. just judging by your comments, you are way to eager to win hands and not tourneys. Why are you playing these hands at this time in the tournament.

meh good point, i just naturally assumed both hands were steal attempts gone wrong.

Look, I’ve read the damn book already so lay off.

And I’m sorry. I shouldn’t be playing KQ suited? I shouldn’t play K10 when I’m short stacked? Should I wait for pocket rockets and get blinded out in the process?

There… I’ve added what you wanted but I don’t know how relevant it is. Most of it was there anyway.

And where did I say they were the good hands? Someone asked me to post my losses so I did. If you want to help – help. Don’t be a jerk. God, some people P me off.

He's not trying to be mean, he's giving good sound advice.

Originally Posted by JoschMH

by then I’m committed to the pot anyway. Maybe I should’ve gone all in but he still would’ve called. As it happens, he had AJ and I lost. What could I do differently?

I think that's your best answer, shove or fold. You can't possibly fold after your 3 bet anyway, and he can fold after calling it, so why not just push over? He probably calls always with AJ, but not much you can do about it. You aren't that far behind AJ anyway.

Edit: You should post these hands in the SNG forum to get advice from people who play a lot of sngs.

Originally Posted by JoschMH

Look, I’ve read the damn book already so lay off.

And I’m sorry. I shouldn’t be playing KQ suited? I shouldn’t play K10 when I’m short stacked? Should I wait for pocket rockets and get blinded out in the process?

There… I’ve added what you wanted but I don’t know how relevant it is. Most of it was there anyway.

And where did I say they were the good hands? Someone asked me to post my losses so I did. If you want to help – help. Don’t be a jerk. God, some people P me off.

I'm sorry, your right. Keep on doing what your doing. It's working.

Originally Posted by pankfish

Edit: You should post these hands in the SNG forum to get advice from people who play a lot of sngs.

You can post SnG HH's in this forum too.

JoschMH, you should not come to a forum, ask for help, and then get angry when people criticize your play. I have not seen one post in this thread that hasn't been either kind or helpful or both, so I don't really understand why you're getting so upset.

It's not nice to hear that you're not a good player, but trust me when I say that we know better than you do. If you believe you're such a good player, why did you even come to this forum? I think you came here to get help, and you are getting it. Your one thread has produced several thoughtful, helpful replies. You should be extremely appreciative, and you absolutely should not be making rude posts to people who are giving you legit advice. Your attitude will only cause people to stop replying to you.

And sorry if you don't want to hear it, but the 3 hands you posted were all played wrong. In order of your posted hands: KQs should be pushed PF if the villain has been loose. KTo needs to be folded PF. QJo needs to be given up after the flop.

id play one-two levels below ur initial level and shove all in every hand till u win one once ur stack is less than or equal to 8 BBs...

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Originally Posted by pankfish

Edit: You should post these hands in the SNG forum to get advice from people who play a lot of sngs.

You can post SnG HH's in this forum too.

Don't start a turf war, Courtie!

(j/k)

Originally Posted by JoschMH

Look, I’ve read the damn book already so lay off.

And I’m sorry. I shouldn’t be playing KQ suited?(1) I shouldn’t play K10 when I’m short stacked?(2)

1) Not necessarily.
2) You weren't that short stacked in the KT hand so opening from this position with these stack sizes is probably a mistake. You are way behind his range when he shoves. You are also not getting great pot odds to call considering your equity is probably around the 30% mark if he is shoving a fairly loose range (88+,AT+,KJ+) and drops off as he approaches a more reasonable shoving range. You're early position raise with KT was a mistake. Your calling a shove with KT from a player who has no reason to think you are bluffing (since you opened in early position), and has no particular reason for wanting to risk diving out of the tournament at this point was a bigger mistake.
3) You wont get anywhere until you drop the attitude and accept that some of the people here know what they are talking about. The KT hand in particular is pretty horrible but you aren't going to get many people willing to help you if all you do is call them a jerk. Goodluck.

josh, feel free to PM me for my e-mail address, and send me 2-3 of your hand histories. I will take a look at them and give you some feedback on your play.

Courtie,
Stop trying to pillage the SNG forum!!!!! Don't make me sick Swiggy on you.

That KQ hand, you should've shoved it preflop if you wanted to make a move. You honestly think a donk is gonna fold for 400 more? Put some pressure on him!


That KT hand is a fold, both preflop and definitely when the guy 3bets. Think about how easily dominated it is.

I would like to explain that in the OP, he basically blamed HOH for his troubles at the tables. My point was that a book we recommend as a "Bible" to low stakes Donkaments could not be the cause of his issues. For one, everything HOH talks about and explains, Pot Odds, Position, effective stacks and M (The all Important M) are not mentioned, nor were the original HH's posted with most of this information. The OP has missed either the point of this book or does not understand poker enough to extract the information from said book. He obviously has to work on the emotional part of the game as well. Maybe poker is not for him, but he may never find out.