No Fold 'Em- To fold or not(theoretical question)...

Assumption: .25/.50 NL. Equally balanced stacks of $20. 6-8 players. Everyone limps in.

Are all preflop hands worth a call here and at what point would they not be? Considering pot odds, how many hands are not worth 7-1(or 5-1) to see a flop and how many are so -EV that even the implied odds wouldn't be worth taking a miracle shot here?

On occasion I do find a game like this and am curious how much I should be opening up my starting hand requirements without it becoming a leak.

Trash has reverse implied odds.

With like 2 or 3 limpers I will play a wide range because I'm pretty good at smallball can often pick up the pot with very little and am comfortable playing stuff like middle pair.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Trash has reverse implied odds.

With like 2 or 3 limpers I will play a wide range because I'm pretty good at smallball can often pick up the pot with very little and am comfortable playing stuff like middle pair.

True, however if you can see a flop for one bet I tend to think reverse implied odds isn't very significant since you can always get away from an unfavorable flop very easily.

You limp 83o on the button.

Flop comes T33r. If a lot of money goes into the pot by the river, you're often in really bad shape.

Originally Posted by Fnord

You limp 83o on the button.

Flop comes T33r. If a lot of money goes into the pot by the river, you're often in really bad shape.

I think this is a different point from what I'm trying to get at. Understandably, playing trash hands will make difficult decions on the flop but are there hands that are such trash that it's not even worth taking a 7-1 or 15-1(SB) stab to see a flop? Is it ever mathematically incorrect not to take these odds?

As your example indicates, the worst case scenario would probably be trips since that would be the hardest to get away from(IMO). But flopping a straight or better would be an ideal situation. Although with a 72o this might be very difficult but even at 7-1 is it correct to call?

So taking your point and my point together maybe I can clear my head on this.
1) Mathematically correct or not
2) If mathematically correct, than taking your point, you better know how to play the flop.

Slight edit...
In reassesing this if a small poket pair is looking for 7.5-1 odds to justify calling, 72o has little business getting involved even with the potential implied odds since the likelyhood of hitting will be slim, and than getting paid off for hitting will probably be slimmer still. Thanks for enduring my mental excersises.

What I would do at that point is limp with any hands that play well multi-way. So prabably any of the lower pocket pairs, any suited or unsuited connectors, and Axs, and /perhaps/ any Kxs or one/two/three gapped connectors, suited or unsuited. That's a -lot- of hands.

Anything that didn't have a chance at making trips, a straight or a flush, I'd just toss out.

If everyone else is just going to limp in then quess what you just limp in right along with them I think. what can it hurt really you get to see the flop on the cheap and you play it from there. you might even try going over the top once in awhile just to mix it up

Originally Posted by strawman

In reassesing this if a small poket pair is looking for 7.5-1 odds to justify calling...

I could be way off here, but a small pocket pair doesnt need 7.5-1 odds to justify a call pf. if they did, there would be very few situations in which small pocket pairs could be played profitably (just looking at the numbers anyways, not counting bluffing, etc.)

If there is enough dead money in the pot i would argue a call with ANY TWO and i mean any two is justifiable. With the amount of limpers you suggest im looking for hands like T7o 65etc here probably (and never at any other times) something as normally -ev as Jxs or Qxs, flopping a gutshot/flush draw or something else could prove rather lucrative should you get odds/hit.

obviously if you are getting huuuge odds (as in there is more in the pot than the number of limpers could have put in) then you are justified in calling any 2 just to see in you can hit a 222 flop with your 72o. In a real poker game though, i think you will bet bet out of a 4 flush with your Jxs and if you do get good enough odds to chase, then you still can't be confident enough that your flush is high enough to drive the betting.

In a limped pot i dont go bust holding Jx if i hit the flush, i know when to call and when to push, but playing Q/Jx is fairly weak if you're scared of having a higher flush. Lets be honest, the only hand you should be afraid of in lp (providing it isnt a donk table) is Axs otherwise noone should be expected to hold Kxs Qxs of the sme suit in this context. I wouldnt go brok here but certainly i may lose a fair amount of money if the Axs hits too.