No bankroll, hitting the live tables, where to start

So, I haven't been playing much lately just because of a lack of a roll, but I generally go once in awhile and just have some fun with disposable income. Usually I just go to the casino 15 miles away and play 1/3. Last time that I had some extra money to play with, I ended up losing two buy-ins at 1/3 in about 30 minutes, hit a tough beat or two and boom, busto. I realize this is part of the game and am not crying about that. The bottom line is though, at this point I don't really have the resources to build a roll... I play once in awhile with extra money, if I win, I save some of it for the next time, if I lose I generally don't get back for a few months.


Today I have a chance to play, just because the wife and kids are busy with the in-laws and so I can spend a guilt-free evening out at the tables. I'm not sure what to do though, I only have about 120 that I really want to spend (again, not rolled, just spending some entertainment budget). I could head to the 1/3 table, and hope for the best... I've had days where I lose 300 in 30 minutes and days where I run 100 up to 500.


Second option, about 30 miles away there is another casino that runs a lot of 3/6 limit, and also have a 50 dollar turbo tourney tonight. I could buy into 3/6 for 60 just to putz around, and then play the tournament. I have very little experience with limit, but I've enjoyed what I've played, and did read Sklansky's book on low limit hold'em a few months back.


Keep in mind, I'm trying to find the best way to have a fun night at the tables with my measly 120... breaking even would be great, winning money would be awesome, going busto isn't the end of the world, just means I won't get back to the tables until the budget allows me to.

So what's the best usage of my puny 120?

TL;DR: Bankroll-less donk looking to have some fun at the tables, how do you get the money to last the longest? I just wanna play some poker and not bust within 30 minutes of walking into the casino. I'm not a great player, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.

Of course I could just put it all on one hand of Blackjack, double up, and hit the no-limit tables... but, that's probably not the best idea.

I should mention, because I know someone will mention using the 120 to start an online roll, I absolutely LOVE live poker. Playing online is OK for me, but live poker is something that I thoroughly enjoy... I love my family but getting to the poker room is one of the only real "hobbies" I have... it gives me a way to meet new people, have fun, and just clear my mind and focus on something I enjoy doing.

It sounds like you're asking what is the least high variance out of 3 extremely high-variance options. I don't know, if you're going to knowingly spit in the face of BRM then I'd just play whatever game you're best at. Alternatively, $120 buys a lot of booze.

Originally Posted by d0zer

It sounds like you're asking what is the least high variance out of 3 extremely high-variance options. I don't know, if you're going to knowingly spit in the face of BRM then I'd just play whatever game you're best at. Alternatively, $120 buys a lot of booze.

Haha, thanks. I guess so... I probably didn't need to make a post on this, I was just deciding what to do tonight and posted on here as a way of thinking out loud.

Edit: LOL because I obviously missed the last paragraph in the OP, eyes are heavy and so going to go sleep before I make any more posts where my suggestion was already addressed ..... EndofEdit

Alternatively to playing live ifman, have you considered investing this entertainment budget into playing online? It would allow you to follow a proper BRM and building up a br online could mean eventually you would be able to make withdrawals to fund a live br. I mean if looking at it for the entertainment value 120 could get you 50+ mtt's at 2$ a piece online where you could stretch the entertainment and still have a chance to win some $$$ and build a br. Would allow you to to play more poker than just a 1 night outing that could result in no poker for 2 months if you lose?

Play whatever you enjoy the most. If you go busto quickly then that's just an unfortunate part of not having a roll to play with.

I would probably have sat at the 1-3 tables. I feel that is the least variance out of the three.

I will tell you to play online poker, but if you love live poker like you said, then whatever you play online or live poker, you have to read more articles, poker books and watch more videos so you can improve your poker playing. Also it's important to have a conversation with other poker players and learn more from their poker experience. On this Forum you have a lot of these things and if you are more active member in near future, I hope that you will learn more from the other members experience, and I hope that you will improve your poker playing and become better poker player.

So in followup to OP, what did you play after and how did it go

Hi Ifman,

I dont know if my advice is good enough, but just to put my thoughts.. If you have 120 as br and dont mind loosing and then again wait till you have br again to Play . Then i would strongly advice you to playonline game if ist possible from your place. Play online sattie into live Events for very cheap and Play fearless game as you dont care about losin.. The satties into live Events are great in online sites and those Major live Events can Change your life if u go on to win that Event or even final tabled it.

When you dont care about losin then the satties ito live Events are the best . Play the satties which gives live packages into some Major live Events as it will be like Holiday for you and your Family. If you bust Day 1 , then you can enjoy the Holiday and City . If you go deep also it is good for the prizemoney . So in both Situation it s win win Situation for you .

it s the best way to enjoy the 100 bucks br

If you insist on playing live without a bankroll, I recommend you study body language as much as possible. Don't be one of these guys who sinks into his ipod when he's not in a hand, pay close attention to how people are playing, what they're showing down with, and in particular try to read people's posture, mannerisms and that kind of stuff. Everyone has tells, because everyone has unconscious reactions to events going on around them. If you can tell the difference between a conscious reaction and an unconscious reaction then you have a massive edge in live poker.

Follow up: I played 3/6 limit for awhile and then used the last of it to play in the turbo tourney. I did shitty at 3/6 limit... it was very loose, all senior citizen regs who knew each other and played every hand. It was my second time playing limit live, and in retrospect I think it was a mistake. I didn't stick to a proper tight game, and played loose because the rest of the table did. I got too caught up in what the rest of the table was doing. Shitty excuse, but frustrated at myself for not playing my way.

I did OK in the turbo, played well early but eventually variance bit me, 12 minute levels live will do that. Ended up with QKo in the small blind with 10 BB left... shoved and the big blind called with TT, which held up. Finished 19th out of 42... meh.

In retrospect I'd probably spend the 55 to play in the tourney and save the rest to build up enough to play 1/3 NL... or go to another Casino near me that runs an 80 dollar tournament, but with 20 minute blinds.

So now, I have to wait a couple months to play live again. It's time to get serious about bankroll building and get back to studying the forums and reading books. I did all this when I first got into poker a year ago, and had some run good at the casino back then. I had netted 1k in 4 sessions and started to think I was better than I was. I stopped studying and then hit a couple bad sessions and tilted away my profits and then some.

In the meantime, I recently found out my one of the local casinos runs 25 and 30 dollar satellites on Saturday mornings to win an entry into their deepstack tournaments ($220, $330, $440, $550, and $770 buy ins, increases each Saturday of the month then resets the next month). That could be a fun way to play some cheap live poker while I save up a bankroll. I realize the variance in the satellites will be high but it's a fun, cheap tourney I can play on Saturday morning and if I ever donk my way into the tournament it will be worth it...

Comments like this...

I did all this when I first got into poker a year ago, and had some run good at the casino back then. I had netted 1k in 4 sessions and started to think I was better than I was.

... makes me feel that you have the right frame of mind to succeed in poker. You have the ability to recognise your own failings, which is more than can be said about the majority of people who play poker, who blame bad beats, runbad and rigged site/casino etc.

But stuff like this...

I played 3/6 limit for awhile and then used the last of it to play in the turbo tourney. I did shitty at 3/6 limit... it was very loose, all senior citizen regs who knew each other and played every hand. It was my second time playing limit live, and in retrospect I think it was a mistake. I didn't stick to a proper tight game, and played loose because the rest of the table did.

... is just so much facepalm. What the hell are you doing playing 3/6 limit vs a bunch of old timers who know each other? Why are you playing loose in a game where you are unfamiliar with the players you face? I wouldn't touch 2nl limit online, let alone 3/6 live. It's such a different game to no limit, because implied odds are next to non existent in limit. Therefore, you need to be drawing with exactly the right pot odds, and paying very close attention to how everyone are playing their hands. I'm assuming there's more than average at showdown, so you should be seeing people hands. Are you adjusting? Do you even know how to adjust vs these kind of players? I don't, not in limit.

You're setting money on fire. You might as well play blackjack.

Study the game you intend to play. Don't just turn up at the casino and play whatever is running five minutes after you get there. Plan your night, play whatever format you're strongest at, know what games you're going to play in advance, including start times and buy ins.

And definitely do not play loose just because everyone else is.

You're right... sitting at the 3/6 limit table was shortsighted. I realized that after the fact. I definitely do not know enough about limit to adjust accordingly to the opposition.

One of my biggest issues when I play any poker is that I get into it and start playing based on reaction and emotion. I start out asking myself why I'm making each move I make, thinking each thing through properly, etc., but eventually fall into the rhythm of just playing mindlessly. I realize it's a mistake but I often find myself on auto-pilot.

I start out asking myself why I'm making each move I make

I think you'd do better to ask yourself why your opponents are making the moves they make. Combine this with a better-than-average understanding of poker psychology, in particular body language, and a solid understanding of the game you're playing, and you're on to a winner imo. I'd love to play live poker at the casino, I'd immerse myself in psychology study.

playing the opposite of the table is the way to earn. If they are loose you play tight and have better hands at showdown than them. Trying to get to showdown vs a ton of loose players is what we call bingo. If the table is tight you loosen up and steal blinds, not tighten up.

Stick around, find a way to get a small BR online and start reading and posting and don't play limit. It's the poker equivalent to watching paint dry. If I had to play limit I would quit poker and play playstation.

haha yeah unfortunate your visit to the casino didn't turn out to well but like you said you got your night out......certainly have to agree with everything ong and jyms have stated and as much fun as it is to play live I think having yourself a br will make it better because you don't have in your mind "if I lose tonight I don't get to play for another 2 months".

Now having that on your mind would help you play more focused, and allow you to play the 1/3 game with full buyins to maximize your ev......I would certainly recommend online to have the money go further and basically if you have extra a long the way then save it up to slowly build a live br while still being able to play online and get the poker fix.

Good luck in your next poker venture.

Originally Posted by jyms

playing the opposite of the table is the way to earn. If they are loose you play tight and have better hands at showdown than them. Trying to get to showdown vs a ton of loose players is what we call bingo. If the table is tight you loosen up and steal blinds, not tighten up.

Stick around, find a way to get a small BR online and start reading and posting and don't play limit. It's the poker equivalent to watching paint dry. If I had to play limit I would quit poker and play playstation.

all of this ^ (except I didn't know that playstation sucked?).

I can't imagine playing in any game where I knew I was only rolled for one shot at it. How could anyone possibly play anywhere near their best if this was the case? (although I have been known to build up some micro bankrolls online once my account was down to the last few $'s, lol).

I'd suggest getting a small bankroll online too. It'll afford you to get in alot of time & experience on the tables (something that's never going to happen live even if you have/had a few buyins).

Against loose opponents you should loosen up, not tighten up. You can play more hands profitably than you normally do.

Another thing you have to consider is the rake at 3 6 limit with a table full of loose players. In a lot of cases it can be very difficult if not impossible in some games to beat the rake in the long run for small stakes live games especially limit games. I like the idea of you playing the satellites because there can be a lot of value in them and it could potentially be a great way for you to get into some bigger games and work on building a nice roll.

If a public cardroom isn't running the game at a loss, the rake on 3/6 is probably very difficult to beat unless it's 5+ players to every flop.

Even then, ouch!

Originally Posted by Fielmann

Against loose opponents you should loosen up, not tighten up. You can play more hands profitably than you normally do.

I'm not so sure about this. This is all very well and good if you're playing against one loose opponent, but a table full? I don't fancy taking stuff like A8o to a flop 5 handed, regardless how likely we were to be ahead pre flop.

If the table is full of loosy goosies, then I tend to play a range of hands that hit flops hard, so I want to see flops with pocket pairs, suited connectors and broadway. My big overpairs and AK are gonna be played aggressively pre flop. But as for loosening up, well I'm not playing J9o in MP just because others are doing so. Even if it's +ev vs the table, it still relies on a post flop edge to see that ev realised, and if I'm regularly at flop with marginal hands multihanded, then I'm not confident I have the required edge. If I'm seeing flops with a wider range, I at least want to be heads up or 3handed max.

So really my pf range doesn't change all that much, just my post flop strategy. I'll be making relentless notes at showdown, and using those notes to try to extract maximum value from hands I'm comfortable with, or to push loose passive fish off marginal hands that shouldn't even have seen a flop.

So, Friday night an interesting course of events transpired... my buddy and me were drinking (I don't drink at the casino, just when playing with friends) and playing heads up NLHE and PLO (10c/20c), just something we do for fun. He's been playing poker for 12 years and I've been playing for 1 year so I regularly make "donations" to him (lose) in order to practice my game. I've actually started to hold my own against him more and more. He plays purely based on the numbers. I enjoy the psychology of poker, and based on the advice here focused a lot more on his body language, etc. One thing led to another, and two hours later we are on our way to the local casino. He basically staked me a buy-in because he felt that if I played a tight, patient game and focused on the body language of the players that I could be successful.

I managed to run his 200 dollar buy in up to 680 playing 1/3 NLHE. A large part of that was from reading the table, minimizing my limping (in the past I get drawn into limping way too much because the rest of the table does), and c-betting. I do think I got lucky, and am not sitting here with my head in the clouds thinking I am better than I am. A hand I made a lot of money on was probably really stupid on my part:

UTG folds
Hero (UTG+1) looks down at JdJc, makes it 15 (stack size 400)
UTG+2 folds
Villain in MP (stack size 1500, brought stack over from a table that folded, seemed to bluff a lot, caught showing down with weak hands) calls
the rest fold.

Flop: Ks7s4c (pot 31 after rake)

Hero bets 25, Villain calls.

Turn: Qh (pot 55 after rake and drop)

Hero checks, villain bets 45.

I called, which I think was stupid in retrospect.

River: 5s (pot 135)

Hero checks. Villain bets 110.

I tanked. I figured I had to fold, I had already been stupid to call the turn. I watched the guy a little bit while riffling my chips. He was staring directly at the board. That kept me from folding...I kept thinking.

Still not satisfied that he was bluffing, figuring with a stack of 1500 bucks (5x the max BI) he could be throwing out reverse tells, I start counting out my chips to call. Once I've counted them out, I sort of watch him out of the corner of my eye. He gave it away when he looked at me. I could see it in his face. I instantly called and he sheepishly said "Good call," and mucked his cards.

Was I a spewing donk here who just got lucky? Or should I continue to study and trust my instincts? I've always felt like I was good at reading people... I've made some pretty huge lay downs in the past, but after some initial success I started to get impatient and not listen to my instincts, and I went on a huge cold streak. I'm saving my profits from this to try and build up a little bit of a roll. I know it's not much but I have to start somewhere.

Also going to throw some cash on carbon or bovada and start getting some practice in. I still prefer live but I understand that my volume live will pale in comparison to my online volume.

Originally Posted by Fielmann

Against loose opponents you should loosen up, not tighten up. You can play more hands profitably than you normally do.

The OP only has +/-40 bb. Under this kind of gamble, I rather play dice.