Need some help with discipline

Before I start I would like to say how great of a resource this website has been for me. I have been reading the posts for about 4 or 5 months now, and I lurk much more than I post. With that being said, I will get on with what I shouldve addressed weeks ago.

I havent been playing poker long, maybe 6 months tops. I started playing with friends, and probably around Thanksgiving of 05, I started an account on Paradise. I tested the waters and did decent getting up to about $150, from my $50 depsoit, however I cashed out and took a break. About a month ago, I deposited on Absolute and have been playing there since. I have been playing mostly SnGs ($2) and have found some obvious leaks in my game that I feel I need to improve on for me to build my BR and move on.

Dont get me wrong I definately feel like I have potential, but I am just not applying what I have learned or know. For example I have no self control of my BR. I often find myself straying from the SnGs and experimenting with ring games (which always ends in losing money). Also when Im in a downswing, I dont know how to turn away from the game, and I feel I must play to allieviate my losses.

As far as actual play, I can be a decent player, if my mindset is correct which may only be 25% of the time. The other 75% of the play, I find myself overplaying my hands, paying people to see their hands and not playing tight enough. I know how to play to win, the problem is I can not remain disciplined or patient enough to see the results. I dont know what else say, I know I have what it takes to be a good player, but I cant seem to focus enough to get there.

Originally Posted by pough4life

Dont get me wrong I definately feel like I have potential, but I am just not applying what I have learned or know. For example I have no self control of my BR. I often find myself straying from the SnGs and experimenting with ring games (which always ends in losing money). Also when Im in a downswing, I dont know how to turn away from the game, and I feel I must play to allieviate my losses.

As far as actual play, I can be a decent player, if my mindset is correct which may only be 25% of the time. The other 75% of the play, I find myself overplaying my hands, paying people to see their hands and not playing tight enough. I know how to play to win, the problem is I can not remain disciplined or patient enough to see the results. I dont know what else say, I know I have what it takes to be a good player, but I cant seem to focus enough to get there.

I too have been playing about 7 months now and followed a very similar path. I started with SnGs and held on for about a month. Then moved to ring. The game was much different but I decided I had more control in the ring games and less variance (for me anyways). My humble suggestion is to pick one and beat it before moving to another game. Right now, after 4 months at 10PL, 25PL, and 25NL full ring, I am "experimenting" with 6 max 25NL.

Which leads me to my comments on the last part of your post. Again, like you, I was overplaying hands and calling bets I had no business calling. The discipline and patience part were just NOT a part of my game. BUT I learned that they had to be a part of my game. So I went to playing 2 tables and that has helped a lot. Now I am quicker to exit a hand and less likely to push with A J (one of those overvalued hands) because the A paired on the flop and my opponenet reraised my raise. Now I just let it go. Trust me, it is still hard work to have the discipline to play like I know I should.

So ... you just have to tell yourself to hang tough. I found that in doing so, I wasn't involved in many hands but those I was involved with tended to pay better.

Good luck.

what a great question. I love this one.

I'm a discipline junkie when it comes to poker, but I came from where you are. No convert like a reformed addict.

We're going to talk alot about beliefs and "how you feel" in this post. Sorry. It's the key to fixing this. However, there are some basic tools you may be missing as well.

First, you've been playing for 6 months. Is that long enough that you feel you've experienced the other games Ring/MTT or whatever enough that you want to settle down with SnG's? It's kind of poker adolesence at this point. If youhave that desire to explore then you may need to do that. there are alot of avenues in poker. my question is, Do You love SnG's enough that you want to focus on them? If not, keep trying things until you're ready to commit ALL your attendion to one thing.

Belief #1 - At 6 months you don't have the skills or experience necessary to conquer more than one type of Holdem at one time. If you try you will fail at both (or them all). However, you are talented and smart enough to conquer One aspect of holdem if you commit all your energy to it. And once you conquer that aspect you can move on to another type of game if you want. If you do that you are guaranteed to succeed. Ignore that and you're guaranteed to fail at ALL aspects of poker. (other people not may see it this way, but they don't matter. If YOU see it this way, then you'll give what you are trying to do the attention and dedication it deserves. Do I have to tell you that sng and ring are two separate games and are played differently?)

Ok, so there is piece #1 for patience. Commitment to trying to accomplish a hard, long-term goal. But if you don't want to do that then you can just keep doing what you're doing. Playing good - what did you say 25% of the time?

NEXT.

Whether you see it or not, you believe that you're bouncing around between games and getting distracted is a MINOR problem that is having SOME impact on you CURRENT success. Logically you might see it differntly but that's how you feel. Let me tell you reality (or the reality you need to believe to fix this "little" problem):

Belief #2: What you are doing that you characterize as "impatience" is Crippling your ability to EVER be good at poker. Not only that but Everytime to do this you are Further Ingraining within your game the fissures, and timebombs that will forever ruin your ability to accomplish what you want in poker. Every time to do something you know is "impatient" you are cementing habit that will reappear when they will do the most damage.

next,

do you have a plan on how to get great at SnG's? Plus, is it your goal to be GREAT at SnG's, or just... better... or good? What's your vision? The first game I ever cracked, after years of break-even poker, was 20 and 30 SnG's on Party. I crackeded the $5 game and the minute I realized I crack ed the $20 and $30 Sng's too, I quit my job (that I hated) and started playing poker full time, making $150 per day playing SnG's on Partypoker. Thousands of dollars/month can be made in low buyin Sngs. A powerhouse SNG game can go on to become a monster MTT game!! What's your vision?

What you have learned is useless if you don't apply it 100% of the time. I'm not a particulary talented poker player. If I don't do what I know I have to do 100% of the time (or as close as I can get) then I LOSE. There's no way around it. If you don't play your most productive, disciplined, quality game 100% of the time. If you don't bring all you mental skills and patience and tools to the table every time, you will lose (and it's why you are losing). Imagine if you won as much as you win now (plus more) but don't lose nearly as much as you lose!! What difference would that make?

If you have skill and dedicate yourself to improving then you can't be beat by anyone but yourself, long-term. Think of it this way, When you Win you win on skill, but when you lose you lose from lack of focus, patience and discipline. I'm not talking about suckouts or bad beats or whatever. I'm talking Overall.

THAT'S how important "patience" is. It's not "one" thing. It's EVERYTHING. Without it you're pissing away all the hard work you're putting in, not just now - but Forever and Ever Amen!

Here's what I'm saying, either you're going to do what you need to do to be a great poker player, or you aren't. It's OK to just play around at poker. MOST people do it. They don't have the desire, will, PATIENCE, commitment, discipline or vision to get great.

Every single person on FTR who makes tens of thousands of dollars per year playing poker had to overcome this issue at one time. They all did (and did alot more). They immersed themselves in becoming great poker players. And in the end they did. Because becoming a great poker player is INEVITABLE when you do that. And it's IMPOSSIBLE if you don't.

It's magic. Either you will do what you know is best 100% of the time (while learning more every day to do) or you won't.

I hope you do. This whole post was my attempt to change your BELIEFS about what is necessary, what is required and what is possible if you stop indulging a childish belief that poker is here to entertain you. Losers are entertained. Great poker players are Machines. And it's a hell of a lot more fun being a money machine. Online poker is like a free ATM once you do what you have to do.

good luck

Thanks for the advice aok and lizard... I definetly need to re-assess my game and how I approach poker overall. I've realized that I have bad (at-table) habits which I NEED to address and eliminate. I dont pay nearly enough attention to a table; I often find myself on the internet browsing FTR or even something completely non-poker related, then to find my self not knowing anything about my opponents or their styles. I dont take any notes and this is something that I felt was underrated. Thats wrong. And I know better than that.

Another thing aok mentioned in a post different from this one, (in one of the stickies) is that you cant play sloppy at the low limits if you wanna succeed and move on to the higher ones. I am going to keep this in mind for the near future. I need to focus more and stop straying away from the table.

For now I am going to focus on SnGs. I had bad experience with ring games both on Paradise and now Absolute simply because I had been playing outta my proper BR. And now on Absolute there are no micro limit ring games. The SnGs have been where I've had the most success. I won $100 at Paradise, and now have a 25% ROI on the $2 SnGs on Absolute. Also I find SnGs far more fun and exciting than regular ring games. Like Aok mentioned I''ll focus on one area and when I am comfortable with that area I'll experiment with other blends of poker.

For the first time today, I sat down at a table, studied every single hand played w/o any interruptions or internet surfing, played tight, took notes studied my opponents. By the time 5 people were left I got a feel for how they played and I ended up winning the table That felt good

Thanks for the responses, ill keep you updated on how Im doing

Originally Posted by aokrongly

what a great question. I love this one.

I'm a discipline junkie when it comes to poker, but I came from where you are. No convert like a reformed addict.

We're going to talk alot about beliefs and "how you feel" in this post. Sorry. It's the key to fixing this. However, there are some basic tools you may be missing as well.

First, you've been playing for 6 months. Is that long enough that you feel you've experienced the other games Ring/MTT or whatever enough that you want to settle down with SnG's? It's kind of poker adolesence at this point. If youhave that desire to explore then you may need to do that. there are alot of avenues in poker. my question is, Do You love SnG's enough that you want to focus on them? If not, keep trying things until you're ready to commit ALL your attendion to one thing.

Belief #1 - At 6 months you don't have the skills or experience necessary to conquer more than one type of Holdem at one time. If you try you will fail at both (or them all). However, you are talented and smart enough to conquer One aspect of holdem if you commit all your energy to it. And once you conquer that aspect you can move on to another type of game if you want. If you do that you are guaranteed to succeed. Ignore that and you're guaranteed to fail at ALL aspects of poker. (other people not may see it this way, but they don't matter. If YOU see it this way, then you'll give what you are trying to do the attention and dedication it deserves. Do I have to tell you that sng and ring are two separate games and are played differently?)

Ok, so there is piece #1 for patience. Commitment to trying to accomplish a hard, long-term goal. But if you don't want to do that then you can just keep doing what you're doing. Playing good - what did you say 25% of the time?

NEXT.

Whether you see it or not, you believe that you're bouncing around between games and getting distracted is a MINOR problem that is having SOME impact on you CURRENT success. Logically you might see it differntly but that's how you feel. Let me tell you reality (or the reality you need to believe to fix this "little" problem):

Belief #2: What you are doing that you characterize as "impatience" is Crippling your ability to EVER be good at poker. Not only that but Everytime to do this you are Further Ingraining within your game the fissures, and timebombs that will forever ruin your ability to accomplish what you want in poker. Every time to do something you know is "impatient" you are cementing habit that will reappear when they will do the most damage.

next,

do you have a plan on how to get great at SnG's? Plus, is it your goal to be GREAT at SnG's, or just... better... or good? What's your vision? The first game I ever cracked, after years of break-even poker, was 20 and 30 SnG's on Party. I crackeded the $5 game and the minute I realized I crack ed the $20 and $30 Sng's too, I quit my job (that I hated) and started playing poker full time, making $150 per day playing SnG's on Partypoker. Thousands of dollars/month can be made in low buyin Sngs. A powerhouse SNG game can go on to become a monster MTT game!! What's your vision?

What you have learned is useless if you don't apply it 100% of the time. I'm not a particulary talented poker player. If I don't do what I know I have to do 100% of the time (or as close as I can get) then I LOSE. There's no way around it. If you don't play your most productive, disciplined, quality game 100% of the time. If you don't bring all you mental skills and patience and tools to the table every time, you will lose (and it's why you are losing). Imagine if you won as much as you win now (plus more) but don't lose nearly as much as you lose!! What difference would that make?

If you have skill and dedicate yourself to improving then you can't be beat by anyone but yourself, long-term. Think of it this way, When you Win you win on skill, but when you lose you lose from lack of focus, patience and discipline. I'm not talking about suckouts or bad beats or whatever. I'm talking Overall.

THAT'S how important "patience" is. It's not "one" thing. It's EVERYTHING. Without it you're pissing away all the hard work you're putting in, not just now - but Forever and Ever Amen!

Here's what I'm saying, either you're going to do what you need to do to be a great poker player, or you aren't. It's OK to just play around at poker. MOST people do it. They don't have the desire, will, PATIENCE, commitment, discipline or vision to get great.

Every single person on FTR who makes tens of thousands of dollars per year playing poker had to overcome this issue at one time. They all did (and did alot more). They immersed themselves in becoming great poker players. And in the end they did. Because becoming a great poker player is INEVITABLE when you do that. And it's IMPOSSIBLE if you don't.

It's magic. Either you will do what you know is best 100% of the time (while learning more every day to do) or you won't.

I hope you do. This whole post was my attempt to change your BELIEFS about what is necessary, what is required and what is possible if you stop indulging a childish belief that poker is here to entertain you. Losers are entertained. Great poker players are Machines. And it's a hell of a lot more fun being a money machine. Online poker is like a free ATM once you do what you have to do.

good luck

HOly fuck I just read this today, this needs to be stickied, great fuckin advice wow!

Originally Posted by pough4life

I know how to play to win, the problem is I can not remain disciplined or patient enough to see the results. I dont know what else say, I know I have what it takes to be a good player, but I cant seem to focus enough to get there.

I lack every form of discipline so I'm the last to talk about this subject, but I find that in myself it's usually more about motivation. Do you still have the drive to win like you used to?

Btw.. Aok.. you have studied NLP haven't you? The structure of your posts brings back vague memories. "Beliefs". (hope this doesn't incite any more flames *hides*)

NLP?

NLP - Neurological Programming... Mainly via Anthony Robbins. One of the reasons I am a big fan of his is because of how he has dissected this very important part of life.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

NLP - Neurological Programming... Mainly via Anthony Robbins. One of the reasons I am a big fan of his is because of how he has dissected this very important part of life.

I've heard the name - he is some NLP guru isn't he?

Anyway, this explains so much.. for example why I cringe in pain when I read your posts. No offense here, it's just a reaction from a long forgotten past lol. This talk about beliefs, the language patterns etc.. it's textbook NLP stuff I think. You seem to have been a diligent student on other things than just poker Aok. And from the reactions these posts are getting, it seems pretty effective too.. maybe I should have given it some more time. (lol)

/end of hijack

lol... well i'm zenlike in my ability to forgive and forget (or is it not care and ignore?) lol. Just kidding. I've made alot of mistakes and misjudgments in my life, so I give everyone else a few against me. Figure it's only fair. NO worries.

But yea, he's a "success" guru. I spent my early 20's reading most of them and for the most part they are about as deep as a soap dish. But Robbins made it a point to go at everything from a very practical, practiced and proven way. (and that's how try to go about poker advice as well.)

Just hang loose and enjoy FTR. You're obviously smart, but if you go at poker from a more open perspective I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

It's all good. Just do your thing.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

lol... well i'm zenlike in my ability to forgive and forget (or is it not care and ignore?) lol. Just kidding. I've made alot of mistakes and misjudgments in my life, so I give everyone else a few against me. Figure it's only fair. NO worries.

But yea, he's a "success" guru. I spent my early 20's reading most of them and for the most part they are about as deep as a soap dish. But Robbins made it a point to go at everything from a very practical, practiced and proven way. (and that's how try to go about poker advice as well.)

Just hang loose and enjoy FTR. You're obviously smart, but if you go at poker from a more open perspective I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

It's all good. Just do your thing.

I've actually seen anthony robbins in person @ a firewalking session (it was like some 3 day session, and a friend was helping out so he brought me along to help out as well). I must say I was quite impressed by him (I *did* walk fire), but something about him just seemed *too* persuasive... too sure of himself

That said, I *do* listen to his CDs sproadically. A lot of what he says is really just good sense but packaged up with a ribobn bow tied around it... (e.g. I know I should exercise in the morning and get myself 'woken up' and alert and help the circulation and body, and eating healthy is just good sense, and goal setting is undoubtedly good. But do I need some professor to tell me about acid and alkaline?)

yea, i'm sure he isn't everyone's cup of tea. And, just like anything, one has to believe in and apply what he teaches to get any benefit. But it works for me. I'm addicted to self-improvement and over-achievement (not that others don't have them as goals), and his teachings work for me. I've never seen him live or listened to a tape. Just read his stuff. From the pieces of video I had seen of him prior to getting his book I lumped him in with all the other high energy motivators (who don't do anything for me). Once I read one of his books, "Awaken The Giant Within" and started executing what he teaches I was hooked.

He works for me, and yes you can see him in what I say about beliefs, attitudes, making issues crystal clear. That is a big thing with him and something I use 100 percent. My goal is to always frame an issue in such a way that the direction is obvious and vital.

Anyway, he's not everyone's thing. But I'm a big fan and hope to go to one of his live week long sessions in December.