My putting people on range problem

Thanks to spoonitnow for his post on why newbies suck.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es-t80178.html

After reading his post and the posts down the thread , my confusion grew.
I understand the point that I suck because I dont consider villains ranges,throughout the flop, turn and river.
For some reason Spoon seems to remember how newbies see the world of poker and he hits the nail on the head time and time again, its a Zen thing.
I was hoping to find out how to pinpoint villians ranges in this thread .

Because I had no idea.

I did what I always do when I read a thread that inspires me, I apply it to the very next hand. I was playing onlne at the time so this was easy.And I want to demonstrate why I cant put people on ranges.

It went something like this.


£0.20/£0.40 6 handed NLH

I have no reads , and I want to eliminate all the factors to focus in on how to put people on ranges. keep it simple for my newbie mind,Spoon might understand.

(I cant convert it cos it was on a site that doesnt have hand histories, and its all from memory.)

Im BTN with Qh Qs

Sb, bb ,1 fold ,2 callers HERO 4xBB. The sb folds.


I get 1 fold ,3 calls..

Im trying to put people on ranges here, where do I start?

I suppose the limpers haven’t got 99+ because they didn’t raise. And I don’t know what they raise with.Perhaps they are slow playing, I just dont know.

The flop produces

Jh 10D 6S

The BB calls 3xBB.

Ive just read spoons post, and its inspired me to think about villains range.

I don’t know what to make of this EP raise.Is he on a set,has he the flop hit his range, i dunno,2 pairs? One pair?

Then to make matters worse everyone limps.

Because im thinking about Spoons post my whole world is distracted, i have no clue why the BB raise from EP and everyone limps.

I limp too. I want to raise, but im worried about better hands. Im convinced im ahead. But Im now lost in this world of everone elses range.

TURN {Jh 10D 6S} 9H

Same thing again, 3xBB and everyone limps, including me. But im still lost. Has everyone at the table read spoons post?
Has my hand gotton worse now? Should I have shoved earlier. Its too late now.

RIVER {Jh 10D 6S 9H} 8C

Everyone checks.
I raise a mediocre 3xBB and everyone folds.

I never got to see what everyone had, I tried to think ranges but nothing popped into my head.ANd no-ne helped, because the all folded.

Its a start at least im trying.But its foggy.

First you put them on a limping range. If you have a hud this is easy as pie... otherwise you have to go with the standard limping range on those tables which is indicated by the vpip vs pfr range. If someone limps from UTG at 6m it usually means that they are limping wide. Most micro to mid stakes players raise too little and call too much. So you can assume they limp all kinds of crap but raise very little. I would not necessarily exclude TT or AJ from the limping range depending on opponent.

The problem now is that your raise not really changes their range much because you give them way too good pot odds to lay down anything. The first caller gets 7.5:3 on a call, the second one gets 10.5:3 on a call. I would not expect them to lay down anything they're limping for that price unless they are retarded.

Same on the flop... nothing folds getting more than 5:1. In fact a worse hand could easily raise.
Dude, learn about bet sizing... I'm not reading the rest.

ok. thanks for reply.

the post is hard to read.

Don't get me wrong... it's necessary to put people on ranges at some point, but I think you need to work on the even more basic stuff like pot odds and how they relate to your bet sizing.
And not even that... you can just go by standard bet-sizing without having to understand why you do it. Like raising 4xbb +1 per limper and c-betting 3/4 of the pot when you either hit, or the board is dry... it's not always correct, but more likely to be correct than what you are doing now.

I'll also take the freedom to assume that you are neither rolled nor can you beat £40NL. If loosing £1000+ while you're learning won't affect you personally then go ahead, but it would be more wise in my opinion to start your BR from the lowest possible level so you make your mistakes at stakes where it doesn't really matter, and you won't have to dig yourself out of the hole once you manage to beat the game.

When I think about ranges, I always wonder if my method is reliable at the tables.

With no reads nor enough hands recorded, I just have to go by general hand ranges depending on position.

With an adequate amount of hands recorded, but no solid reads, I go by position and what their HUD stats tell me about their image.

When you start to see tendencies such as showdowns and specific betting lines, putting them on ranges can be more efficient.

Lastly, depending on the opponent, my own image comes into play.

But I always wonder if this method is the right way to put people on ranges. Putting people on ranges seem to be a difficult thing because not many people play a linear range. If they have a 25% CO Open-Raising stat on the HUD, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the top 25% of starting hands.

Does anyone understand what I mean or am I just rambling or something?

Originally Posted by Dueces88

Putting people on ranges seem to be a difficult thing because not many people play a linear range. If they have a 25% CO Open-Raising stat on the HUD, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the top 25% of starting hands.

Does anyone understand what I mean or am I just rambling or something?

This is absolutely correct. Suppose a tight player calls a raise with 6% of hands in LP, but open raises 6% of hands in EP. The composition of each of these ranges will likely be very different. I think that some of the information in this link could help with those difficulties: http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...=0#Post8629256

As for OP, I'm still thinking on that one. It's obvious that there are a number of ideas that OP needs to work on like bet sizing and understanding the function of our different betting options, but I'm stuck in a bit of a "Which comes first, the chicken or the egg" type of spot in deciding how to address it. That might be a little vague, but I'll come back to this later today when I've had some time to think on it.

Congrats on applying this stuff to your game, OP. You've already taken a step that a lot of people, for whatever reason, refuse to.

I think instead of immediately applying it to your game, the OP should instead take in the information and think. Try to understand why the concepts he just learned makes sense. Even write things down if it helps you better understand. THEN apply it to your game.

If you just read about a concept and then immediately apply it, you'll just be playing in this manner because someone said so, but you will not actually know why the heck you're doing it, which can cause problems.

@spoonitnow: You seem to know a lot about the different concepts about this game. I'd like to talk to you on the chat sometime and hear your thoughts. Your posts as very insightful. I'm not really a beginner, but I am definitely lacking in playing experience, in my opinion. I think I need to better understand game theory, mathematics, and ways to increase my real-time computation speed.

Originally Posted by Dueces88

I think instead of immediately applying it to your game, the OP should instead take in the information and think. Try to understand why the concepts he just learned makes sense. Even write things down if it helps you better understand. THEN apply it to your game.

If you just read about a concept and then immediately apply it, you'll just be playing in this manner because someone said so, but you will not actually know why the heck you're doing it, which can cause problems.

@spoonitnow: You seem to know a lot about the different concepts about this game. I'd like to talk to you on the chat sometime and hear your thoughts. Your posts as very insightful. I'm not really a beginner, but I am definitely lacking in playing experience, in my opinion. I think I need to better understand game theory, mathematics, and ways to increase my real-time computation speed.

Come into IRC anytime. Check the community forum sticky for info.

Originally Posted by celtic123

Jh 10D 6S

The BB calls 3xBB.

(...)

Then to make matters worse everyone limps.

Your post is kinda hard to read, I think you mean to say he bets 3BB (gross minbet) and everyone calls? (limping is calling 1 BB preflop)

About putting people on ranges, it's not an exact science, it's already a good first step that you're thinking about it. On the flop you could for example say to yourself, he might have a J, a T, or a drawy hand like 98,87,Q8. Or well, just A high - I means he bets so little it could be anything, also a 6. On this flop a lot of hands will either have a pair or a gutshot or just some overs they don't want to fold for that price.

I wrote this then I didn't click submit... sooo a little late but it's about LP range not necessarily being the top of the % bet/limped/raised

CO and BTN are exceptions as it's the perfect position to steal blinds and isolate limpers. If you're on the button, a passive player limps and CO raises, and you know he's capable of isolating then you can lower your 3-bet range and generally not give him too much credit. Same if it has folded to him and the blinds are not too loose. But you have to realize that some people especially at microstakes are completely unaware of position, so I would not vary my play too much in these situations unless you have a solid read.
It would probably be a better idea to maybe take note of that, but not trying to exploit it so much below 25NL.

The most important things at the micros are discipline, bet sizing and hand selection. Trying to learn and use too many concepts at once is doomed to fail. Try becoming aware of these things. I would suggest you still fold AJ from the bb to a potential steal raise, but try to put the players on a range when you are not in a hand in these spots and see how you're doing.

Hmm...I'm not really a fan of telling players to fold certain hands from certain positions. I mean telling them without explaining why because that will confuse them.

Not playing AJ from BB has to do with you being OOP and AJ being a hand that can be dominated by a strong range. But this hand is playable from BB if you have good reads on the BTN.

Anyway, I just feel you need to explain your reasoning instead of just telling them what to do.

I noes...
I said the same thing a couple of months ago. But the more you try to explain it the more you whish people would just follow advice, stop loosing money, move up and figure out the answer in the process.

The prolem is that it's a complex situation. First you have to figure out if the button is capable of a steal. If not, then it's an easy fold. - You could make a case for widening your range against a maniac... having played 5NL like a maniac I would advice against that. Most players are prone to opening up too wide and don't understand how to defend, so the best strategy is to just wait for good hands, hit the flop and make profit, and not worry too much about the couple of cents you're potentially loosing by not playing a hand when you could be ahead.

The villains range is divided into value and steal.
How are you going to figure out which one it is?
How far will he go on a bluff? Does he double barrell with air?
When the flop comes A3T... do you c/c him down?

Being out of position here sucks so much more than you probably realize. If you're in position and the initial raiser checks, you can probably take down the pot. From the blinds you have to check and see what he does. If he bets then a steal attempt will be much more expensive. By knowing if he's willing to bet the hand you know a lot more about his range. On later streets you don't see if he slows down when a draw completes, or an overcard hits.

And in the end you're likely overthinking the situation when the opponent isn't thinking at all, and you just managed to trap yourself.

Originally Posted by oskar

The villains range is divided into value and steal.

I think creating this dichotomy is unnecessary and unhelpful, if not downright inaccurate.

say that the villain has four ranges:

|---fold---|-----bet-----|----call----|----bet----|

in this case you have this "dichotomy" because hands that he wouldn't bet he would just call with so he can't have medium-strength hands

unfortunately, a button opener's range is like this:

|----fold---|----------------raise---------------|
so then hands on the line between fold and raise are neither strong enough to raise for value, but you don't immediately make profit with your steal either or you'd have no folding range
so the combination of your folding equity and your post-flop equity is what makes you profit

Originally Posted by oskar

I'll also take the freedom to assume that you are neither rolled nor can you beat £40NL. If loosing £1000+ while you're learning won't affect you personally then go ahead, but it would be more wise in my opinion to start your BR from the lowest possible level so you make your mistakes at stakes where it doesn't really matter, and you won't have to dig yourself out of the hole once you manage to beat the game.

Yes , your assumptions are correct, Ive dropped to the lowest stakes and have managed to not lose my deposit. Im sticking to 19 starters and positional decisions.

Thanks for you advice

Originally Posted by iopq

say that the villain has four ranges:

|---fold---|-----bet-----|----call----|----bet----|

in this case you have this "dichotomy" because hands that he wouldn't bet he would just call with so he can't have medium-strength hands

unfortunately, a button opener's range is like this:

|----fold---|----------------raise---------------|
so then hands on the line between fold and raise are neither strong enough to raise for value, but you don't immediately make profit with your steal either or you'd have no folding range
so the combination of your folding equity and your post-flop equity is what makes you profit

I really like this as a visualization.

Originally Posted by Dueces88

Hmm...I'm not really a fan of telling players to fold certain hands from certain positions. I mean telling them without explaining why because that will confuse them.

Not playing AJ from BB has to do with you being OOP and AJ being a hand that can be dominated by a strong range. But this hand is playable from BB if you have good reads on the BTN.

Anyway, I just feel you need to explain your reasoning instead of just telling them what to do.

I must admit, I have read snippets here and there about AJ not being too clever in this postition. I dont understand fully why , It does look so pretty too, I think the more hands I play , the more Ill haer AJ in that position ,and the more ill learn through the long haul .And personal experience.