My problems as a beginner poker player

I've been playing online poker for a month or two now. I currently play at Party Poker as it offered a small deposit bonus and boasted the most number of people, which I felt were good options. I am a no-limit player with a small bankroll. My initial deposit was $100, with the newest bonus my bankroll is now $225. I have made $o in profit from my own play, but I have avoided losing money as well. The following are issues I have begun to realize exist with my game. Any comments or advice is greatly appreciated. I am at work currently, so this post will not have any Hand Historys for specfic examples.

1. I seem to spend all my time playing generally tight poker, something close to the "19 hands" + suited connectors from late position for a low bet. Over a couple hours I can build up my stack to about 1.5-3x the $5 buy-in. But 90% of the time, I will end up losing all of it to a bad-beat or more likely a bad play. Therefor negating all my profit and putting me $5 in the hole. How do I stop one or two terrible hands from forcing me to lose the profit I've been building up for hours?

2. The advice I've read in SSH, Harrington on Hold'em, and online don't seem to be accurate. This may be because of the mirco limits I play at, some players I can accurately tag as calling stations and some I know to only bet hard with a sure hand, but most are just random.

I've been working on following betting patterns and keeping notes on players with noticable quarks. I've registered Poker Tracker and use that an PokerAceHUD to moniter my tables. I lurk in FTR and read the forums to pick up on tips and how I should be playing certain hands. But I'm still not showing any real progress. Are there any players that would be willing to take an evening and sit and tutor me.

This is mainly a frustration post, from a new player, thanks for listening to me whine.

Originally Posted by Myke

How do I stop one or two terrible hands from forcing me to lose the profit I've been building up for hours?

When you get up to 3xbuyin and are afraid of losing it, then leave the table and come back to buyin at the max again ($5). Pocket $10, rinse and repeat.

One of the big things that separates a winner from a break even or marginal losing player is the hands they lose with. Everybody tries to maximize their wins, but when you lose big it offsets that and becomes really aggravating. I played 3k hands of breakeven poker and I know there are lots of people who have had longer streaks, but the difference was most of it was due to me winning big but losing big as well. Recently Ive been spending my time on reading what my opponents have and to know when Im beat. I found there are some hands that I overvalue preflop, and then I also realized that I have a hard time laying down an overpair or two pair when its pretty clear that Im beat.

This is a good thread over at 2+2 that gives advice on how to find your leaks using pokertracker:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...fpart=all&vc=1

Try analyzing your own play, post some hands here and see how your thought process stacks up against what other people think, and then post what you think about other people's hands.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

This is a good thread over at 2+2 that gives advice on how to find your leaks using pokertracker:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...fpart=all&vc=1

Try analyzing your own play, post some hands here and see how your thought process stacks up against what other people think, and then post what you think about other people's hands.

I can tell from poker traker that some of my biggest leaks are AQo and AQs. I'll definitly post a few hands from PT once I get home and can get to my database.

I play at the same stakes, but likely know no more than you about "how to play", and everything I say is likely false at higher stakes, but here goes ...

There's a big difference between losing because someone is sucking out on you (after the big bets are made) and losing because you were beat and didn't know it.

I've found that 90% of the time people bet their hand. They may call anything (and oh they will), but they will only raise or initiate with something. The more they bet, the better they think there hand is.

I find myself losing the most with cards like JTs / KJ when I hit two pair (on the flop) to either a straight or a flush. I hate having to lay down those cards to big bets/raises, and sometimes I don't, but I know in general I should. I run into real trouble trying to play bigger pots with a lot of other people. (This happens regardless of the raise sometimes).

I've also noticed that flops like A 3 6 are deadly because people will call 3xbb with Ax and then hit two pair, or play 45s and go for the straight.

Finally, trust your instincts and don't bet more than you have to unless you are certain you've won. If someone reraise on the river for $1.00 and your unsure, there's no reason to reraise him.

Yorib has already found it, but really try going for analysing sessions with other players.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-32683.htm

I play $5 at Party (so, okay, we'll have to avoid each other ) and so far I've taken my original $75 ($50 stake + $25 bonus) and am up to $175.

I've played some pretty poor poker but I'm learning. And my poor poker isn't as bad as the average, obviously.

I've posted lots of hands here, probably to the point of irritating people and I've got really good tips. So do post some hands and get some tips.

As far as busting out; it happens to the best and so it'll happen to us. But if it's becoming a problem then I'd suggest not letting the pot get out of hand unless you've got the nuts.
At $5nl players WILL pay you off when you have the nuts, so just wait for it.
They're also largely passive, so they'll bet $0.50 into a $2 pot when you'd call twice that. If you are getting people pushing all-in too often then just switch tables. There's easy tables on Party.

Anyway that's my $0.01 worth.

Originally Posted by Myke

Over a couple hours I can build up my stack to about 1.5-3x the $5 buy-in. But 90% of the time, I will end up losing all of it to a bad-beat or more likely a bad play. Therefor negating all my profit and putting me $5 in the hole. How do I stop one or two terrible hands from forcing me to lose the profit I've been building up for hours?

I agree with Andy - the key is to stop losing the big hands. In my experience, beginners most frequently lose big with TPTK or overpairs. these are good hands BUT you don't want to commit your whole stack with these. if in doubt, raise or reraise on the flop or turn to find out where you are. If the opponent continues to be aggressive then better check/fold than play for stacks.

I think this problem is not too uncommon. Atleast it sounds very familiar to me. When I play my so called "A game" (the calm and calculated kind) I don't make more money on good hands.. I simply lose TONS less on crap hands and longshots and gambles and second-best hands and ignoring obvious signs of being beat etc.

Originally Posted by Myke

2. The advice I've read in SSH,...

SSH is a Limit book. Its a damn good one and it will help your no limit game a little but you should probably focus on No Limit books for now.

You say you spend "most of your time" playing tight. What do you do for the rest of it? If you get bored towards the end of the session and call a raise with AT and then lose your stack with a pair of Aces to AK then thats no good. Decide whatever your system is going to be and then stick to it. That doesnt mean you cant ever make mixup raises or whatever, but it does mean that if you decide you arent playing AT to a raise, then you wont play AT to a raise.

Alot of your problems are probably with postflop play trying to figure out when you are beat. That sort of thing needs alot of practise, and alot of individual hand histories posted.

For now i suggest leaving the table when youve made a decent amount of proifit.

I think big laydowns are the key for you myke. Furthermore, one thing i have recently being working on are ways to control pot size. aim for cheap showdowns, when there is a higher chance you have the second best had etc. Someone might like to link some info of pricing the showdown threads here (i cant find any). btw what is your win at showdown %?

AQo/s should be winners at 5nl, as players routinely overvalue their A- shitty kicker. how many hands are in your sample?

whats the status of your signiture pelion? am interested to see an update from a 10nl grinder. whats your current BB/100.

Beginner's approach to laydowns:

First 20,000 hands - don't laydown enough
Second 20,000 hands - laydown too often
Third 20,000 hands - hopefully find a happy medium?

Rather than suggesting you leave the table when you've tripled up, I'd suggest be totally aware of any subconscious loosening up - the "oh I can afford to see this flop" or "I am the big stack, let's try to bully my way to this pot" effect.

Actually, tightening up is a problem too, and one I suffer from sometimes. I get miserly - I see my lovely big stack and I metaphorically fold my arms around it - I don't want anyone else getting their hands on my cash. At this point I usually leave the table because I know I've stopped playing for value.

Thank you all for your comments. I regret not being able to address certain questions regardign stats since I'm not looking at PT databse. I've logged about 10k hands thus far (yes small sample). I've seen many holes in my play, the issue is not so much recognizing a leak, but knowing what I need to do in order to fix it.

I will generally lay down hands like KT, QJ, JT, to a PFR then get annoyed in the cases where I see the raiser show down with junk or a low-mid pocket pair.

I'll fold any AXo and limp with AXs. Correct?

When i do get a premium hand, AA-JJ, AK. I'll raise to 20-30 cents, and i rarely get callers, when I do they generally fold to any bet I put out on the flop. Am I suppose to bet the flop or check it, often time it flops 4 to a flush or connectors and I feel I have to bet to protect, but they lay down and I win 40 cents off AA.

I'll small raise with AQ, AJ, KQ, bet when the flop comes low cards and I hit nothing, how do I respond so a player for fires out an oversized or pot sized bet.

How am I suppose to handle huge bets from LAG players when I have TP or the flop missed me completely?

You can take the approach that seeing a flop for .12 or .2 is fine with those hands and you'll continue as long as you hit the hand hard (like 2 pair or OESD). Figuring that you'd spend that much on the hand if you limped in. I'm not sure that there is anything wrong with not getting involved with hands where you're 50/50 staring out and you'll never really know where you stand.

I think Axs Axo is a judgement call, recently Axs hasn't been working out that well for me. I don't feel comfortable with top pair or even two pair.

You may want to consider having a "standard raise" that you do for all hands. (like .20) Use that for everything AK/ 88+/AQs, etc. That way noone will know whether the A on the flop made your hand or is scary. That also allows you to take down a lot of small pots with a c-bet. Also if you regularly throw out a c-bet after the flop that will help build the pot when you do have a strong hand.

In $5NL with a LAG you really need to choose your spots carefully. They could be on a draw, have 2 pair or nothing. I'd suggest reraising strong (with a hand to back it up). Especially if you showed preflop aggression.

Good Luck

I layed down KK to a flopped set of 9's on a 59T board.

Originally Posted by jacbmw

whats the status of your signiture pelion? am interested to see an update from a 10nl grinder. whats your current BB/100.

Since then I got to $500 again, went up to 25NL again and lost my 4 buyins again. Seems like everytime I try and move up I lose flush over flush / set over set / set to made flush on all 1 suit flops. I also played one hand horribly where I "induced a bluff" from a LAG when I had JJ on a AxxA board..... he had AQ.
Im now back to 10NL, and back up to around $460. I dont have my computer with me for the moment though so im going to have about a week off poker (as of last friday). Im crushing 10NL but cant quite get into 25NL yet. I hope to be moving up again within 2 weeks.

try this. When you think you're ahead bet about 1/2 the pot. If you get raised then you need trips or better OR you need to be able to beat whatever draw just hit to stay in the hand.

Tight, careful poker (which is what I play) is about eliminating the mistakes that cost you money. You WILL win money. You've proven that. Now you have to learn how to hold onto it. This is how. At any point if you bet 1/2 the pot and get raised then you need trips or whatever draw that just hit to stay in the hand. (period)

this is especially true at your limits

Originally Posted by yorib

I've found that 90% of the time people bet their hand. They may call anything (and oh they will), but they will only raise or initiate with something. The more they bet, the better they think there hand is.

Finally, trust your instincts and don't bet more than you have to unless you are certain you've won. If someone reraise on the river for $1.00 and your unsure, there's no reason to reraise him.

Item #1 - I think I have paid for that lesson over and over again. Unless I have seen them bluff, I give them the benefit of the doubt and fold. Yeah it sucks if they turn over rags, but I just make a note for the next time.

Item #2 - Trust your instincts NOT YOUR EGO. For me it was all about ... yeah reraise me will ya ... well take this ... Now I will toss a 1/2 pot bet to see where I'm at and if I either get smooth called a couple of times or reraised, I figure I am probably behind ... and no more money in the pot.

My first foray into 50NL went kabooie when I lost 4 buyins in one session by not using what I had learned in the previous 50,000 hands ... don't know why I did this ... yeah I do ... I thought they were ALL bluffing ... they weren't.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

try this. When you think you're ahead bet about 1/2 the pot. If you get raised then you need trips or better OR you need to be able to beat whatever draw just hit to stay in the hand.

I think you can use the same guidelines with 3/4 pot bets and make more money. You will also get less people raising you because you looked weak.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

At any point if you bet 1/2 the pot and get raised then you need trips or whatever draw that just hit to stay in the hand. (period)

I see where you're going, and I like the underlying intent, but I don't agree with the way you stated this. In many cases you bet 1/2 pot, and a worse hand raises you. Are you willing to weak tight your way out of that value? In that group are medium sized pots worth a lot of $$$$.

I've been digesting the pressure points, and against more aggressive opponents the pressure point is often on the turn. Therefore, you can't say "at any point you get raised". Think about it this way Anthony. I never bet less than half pot. EVER. I get raised by thousands of hands that are behind me (even more when I'm lagging). I've had as little as 22, had a 1/2 pot bet raised on the flop, and reraised all in to destack a shorter stacked AK.

I hate to complicate things for a beginner, but I can't advocate weak tightness. I suggest using your method against predictable tight players only.

I will generally lay down hands like KT, QJ, JT, to a PFR then get annoyed in the cases where I see the raiser show down with junk or a low-mid pocket pair.

Don't let this annoy you too much. Heads up, any paired hand is ahead of any unpaired hand. (I'm pretty sure thats true.) So 2-2 is ahead of AK, though AK is only slightly behind. If the raiser shows junk, well, thats life. You might have lost the opportunity to make some money, but you didn't loose any actual money.

I'll fold any AXo and limp with AXs. Correct?

Sounds good. AXs goes down in limpability in EP. I might limp with AXo in LP

When i do get a premium hand, AA-JJ, AK. I'll raise to 20-30 cents, and i rarely get callers, when I do they generally fold to any bet I put out on the flop.

Sounds like you need to loosen up your pre-flop raises a bit. People see you raise, think, "He's got a premium hand." Look at their cards, don't see a premium hand, and fold. OR, they look at their hand, see something like a suited-connector, decide to see the flop, and go from there.

Once in awhile, when you get a lower poket pair or suited connector, try raising pre-flop and at the flop, even if you miss. You said most of the time they fold anyways, right? If you throw in some random raises, you won't be as easy to read, and you might make more when you do have a premium hand.

Am I suppose to bet the flop or check it, often time it flops 4 to a flush or connectors and I feel I have to bet to protect, but they lay down and I win 40 cents off AA.

Bet it. Slowplaying anything less than 3-of-a-kind is asking for trouble. Try to find a occasional situations to bet the same way when you don't have the goods.

I'll small raise with AQ, AJ, KQ, bet when the flop comes low cards and I hit nothing, how do I respond so a player for fires out an oversized or pot sized bet.

I don't like the small-raise idea. Pick a standard raising raise, something like 3-5 times the big blinds, plus one for limpers, and stick with it. AQ, AJ, KQ are all good but not great hands, personally I'd probably raise AQ and KQ from late position, limp with AJ.

How am I suppose to handle huge bets from LAG players when I have TP or the flop missed me completely?

Good pre-flop play is the basics of hold-em, good post-flop play is the hard part, so there's no easy question to that. Just to illustrate that point, imagine player1 has AA, player8 has 5-2 off suit. Player1 raises, everyone folds to player8, who decides to call. Horrible call, right? Well, lets assume player8 plays well post-flop, and folds anything less than 2-pair. When player8 misses, he loses only the amount he called for. But if the flop comes 2-5-10, there's a good chance he'll take player1's stack, unless player1 can fold AA. Could you fold there? I'm not saying thats always a good play, but just keep that in mind, especially when stacks are deep.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Originally Posted by aokrongly

At any point if you bet 1/2 the pot and get raised then you need trips or whatever draw that just hit to stay in the hand. (period)

I've had as little as 22, had a 1/2 pot bet raised on the flop, and reraised all in to destack a shorter stacked AK.

I hate to complicate things for a beginner, but I can't advocate weak tightness. I suggest using your method against predictable tight players only.

Hi Rondavu. Your comment intrigues me. I tend to play weak/tight, I'll admit. It has done very well for me. When I try to get aggressive I lose BIG-time and quickly. I tried this most recently at my ill-fated move up to $25 NL. My normal PT raise % is around 2.7% but I had pushed it up to over 3.6% at the $25 tables and lost 100 bucks in three sessions.

Your above example, of the 22, speaks to me of sheer luck. You pushed all in and you hit a set, right? It's just luck. AK is a shitty hand. I would never have called an all-in with that. I never do.

Maybe you are referring to tournament play? That strategy makes sense there.

Certainly with unpredictable tables of morons and sharks, counter-play tactics work quite well. My recent trip up to $25 land has shown me that you will consistently lose to suck-outs. People play anything there. It's worse than the lower limits, in all honesty. At least at Paradise it is.

I'm eager to learn new tactics, but my experience with being more aggressive has consistently failed. Why is this? Aside from my moronicity, that is.

Originally Posted by Myke

When i do get a premium hand, AA-JJ, AK. I'll raise to 20-30 cents, and i rarely get callers, when I do they generally fold to any bet I put out on the flop. Am I suppose to bet the flop or check it, often time it flops 4 to a flush or connectors and I feel I have to bet to protect, but they lay down and I win 40 cents off AA.

I'll small raise with AQ, AJ, KQ, bet when the flop comes low cards and I hit nothing, how do I respond so a player for fires out an oversized or pot sized bet.

Whoa, raise these hands the same amount

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Certainly with unpredictable tables of morons and sharks, counter-play tactics work quite well. My recent trip up to $25 land has shown me that you will consistently lose to suck-outs. People play anything there. It's worse than the lower limits, in all honesty. At least at Paradise it is.
.

Hey Jiggus,

I strongly feel you're basing your opinion on a short and ill-starred sojourn at $25. If you think about it properly, you'll realise that what you've said can't possibly be true - if you consistently lose to suck-outs, they can't be suck-outs!

And my experience - rather more in-depth than yours - tells me that *some* people will play anything, but the majority won't. And you seem to be forgetting that it's the people who play anything who you'll end up making the most money from!

Don't beat yourself up on the fact your trip to $25 didn't work out, but equally, don't blame some poorly-conceived idea that your opponents' luck/fishiness combination is entirely responsible for your losses. You admit you changed your game plan - you shouldn't, at least not to begine with. You know how to play solid, tight, odds-based poker - just keep doing it. It's as simple as that, at least to start with.

Hi Biondino:

Yes, perhaps you are partially right, however, I do feel that AoK's more conservative approach is quite a solid way to play. I was more interested in hearing the reasoning behind pushing all in with 22, in all honesty, and Rondavu's more aggressive approach, in general. Apologies if my comment came across as a mope.

I suppose that I don't describe my game very well. I have evidence that I've done something correctly over 15,000 hands at $10 NL, but I am NOT at all as aggressive as some here are.

Maybe I only speak for myself, but I am interested in learning if being more wantonly aggressive pre-flop is a more profitable way to play than the way I play now.

We all see the guys who come to the table and "control" it with crazy aggresion. I don't feel comfortable doing that, but maybe that style can be learned.

I certainly have proof that Tony's approach works and I'm a believer in his advice.

Well, I am TOO aggressive if anything - my post-flop aggression factor is about 3.5 and ideally I'd like it to be down about 2, but I am too scared of giving drawing hands cheap odds... anyway, that's not the point of this post.

Don't think $25NL is much better or very different to $10. You have less margin for error (but still a *lot*) and more people raise with decent hands. But if you're relatively tight, you'll still be playing, and winning with, the right hands - you just may need to teach yourself to make bets rather than just call them, because a higher proportion of callers to an Axx flop with have AT+ rather than ANY ace.

There is still very little re-raising without strength, you still find yourself getting great odds to chase draws - the only difference is that if you don't apply a fair bit of discipline, you'll start to leak money unnecessarily. But as a follower of AOK, I'm sure discipline is very much part of your game. You'll be fine, I promise.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

We all see the guys who come to the table and "control" it with crazy aggresion. I don't feel comfortable doing that, but maybe that style can be learned.

The thing here is this.. and this comes from me asking myself the same questions in the past as you do now.. these pure aggro players, they might seem impressive. They come to the table, dominate it, make a big profit, and when you decide to call em down just this once, they DID have the nuts. Woa!

Now, maybe he really is a good Lagg. But more often than not, he isn't all that great. If you observe his short-term success and deduce from that he is a great player, this is very risky if it knocks you off your tried-and-tested game. The thing is this: if mr. aggro sits down at a table that just so happens to favor his playstyle (ie a bunch of scared folk) AND gets a nice run of cards.. only THEN will he be succesful. OR if you or anyone else get so intimidated that you will start reraising him with nothing hands just because he "can't have a good hand all the time!"

I still vividly remember when I first moved up to 20NL. I felt TOTALLY lost. Aggro players were RUINING me. I thought "holy hell, the playstyle here at 20NL is at such a greater level than 10NL, man I just can't compete worth squat". Three hours later however this turned out to be total balony. When I got a good hand finally, mr. Aggro gave me his stack with TP. And I called a scary push when I had overpair.. and all the guy had was a gutshot! So I ended up having won a net 3 buy-ins.

Now I'm HAPPY if I see such a maniac aggro player at my table.. the only problem is I need to get a good hand quickly enough before the other folk at the table take his stack.

That is ofcourse not to say aggro (or Lagg) isn't good.. but it depends on the table, you need to be exceptionally good at reads (otherwise you're better off sticking to a more conservative playstyle) AND you really need to get a nice run of cards if you want to run a profit quickly.

Jiggus, the 22 hand is a low pocket push against live overcards on a shortstack. It is a standard hand that comes up for me now and then. It's totally read based. It has to do with knowing how a particular opponent plays overpairs vs overcards. The concept is you put it all in when they have 6 outs twice, and not much to lose by calling. It's a mini tilt of sorts.

I have pushed 22 in tournament play as well. It was in a 20/180 on stars at the final table, and I was the one shortstacked. Big stack was trying to bully with AK, and I knew he only had 6 outs so I pushed. Unfortunately, the river brought a K.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

The concept is you put it all in when they have 6 outs twice, and not much to lose by calling. It's a mini tilt of sorts.

Thanks Rondavu, but could I trouble you for a bit more explanation on the above-noted quote? "Six outs twice" stumps me.

And in Sit n' Go's or tournies I, too, play a lot more aggressively and 22 is a fine all-in in some situations there. Just that my rule is to only call an all in with KK or better in ring games. Call me conservative, but I've learned the hard way.

Basically, AK guy raises, you call with 22. He misses the flop, c-bets 1/2 pot. You know he missed and doesn't have overpair, so you push. If he calls, he has 6 outs to hit an A or a K - 3 aces and 3 kings left in the deck. The twice refers to turn and river. Statistically, he'll have 28% to beat you, so pretty good odds for a mere 22.

Correctness EDIT: make that 26.5%.. if he hits on turn or river, you have 2 outs to a set on the other one.

I finished HOH volume 1. Armed with the knowledge from that, the advice above, and a clear head, I sat down for a 4 hour period this morning at the $10 tables (BR of $220). After playing for a set 4 hours (after longer periods I think my profits plummeted) I quit. I notices I had walked away with over $40 profit for today. This could just be a good day, but I definitly noticed I was making LESS mistakes than before, and thats at least a start to being a winning player. Thanks for the help everyone. I've learned a few key lessons to improve my game.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Basically, AK guy raises, you call with 22. He misses the flop, c-bets 1/2 pot. You know he missed and doesn't have overpair, so you push. If he calls, he has 6 outs to hit an A or a K - 3 aces and 3 kings left in the deck. The twice refers to turn and river. Statistically, he'll have 28% to beat you, so pretty good odds for a mere 22.

Correctness EDIT: make that 26.5%.. if he hits on turn or river, you have 2 outs to a set on the other one.

So if you're Kreskin, it's an easy push.

It's something I would only do in a Sit n' Go or a tournament. At the moment, anyhow.