My Perspective on 10NL

I'm playing 10NL now on Bodog, and I'm pretty much a fish. So much for introductions. Here's what my current thought process is like for these stakes, and I hope people will discuss and tell me where I'm right/wrong and stuff like that. Anyway, here we go.

I. Preflop

EP: I'm raising AA, KK, QQ like 5x-10x depending on whether I think guys at that table will call or not. I'm raising AK, AQ, JJ suited or unsuited usually between 3x-5x again depending on the table. I limp other broadway combinations and TT and lower PPs.

MP: Here I'm open raising KQ, KJ and TT usually 5x, and I call raises < 10x with AK, AQ, JJ. I'll usually reraise a weak raise with AK/AQ. If there's just limpers before me, I'll also raise with KQ, KJ, TT, all those other hands mentioned, but I'll raise more with AK/AQ than if there were no limpers.

LP: Late and especially on the button, if it's limped around to me, I'm limping with a lot of hands. Suited connectors down to 45-56, connectors down to 78-89 or so, Axs, Kxs, Qxs, and any PP obviously. I'll raise 7x-10x with AK/AQ and bigger PP if it's been limped around. Pretty much I'm limping hands with good implied odds if there's a lot of limpers, and raising my better hands hard if it's limped around. If there's a raise before me, I'll call anything 5x or less with any broadway usually, and I'm reraising with AK/AQ.

II. On the Flop

With the broadway combinations, I'm looking to hit top pair, a flush draw, or a oesd. I mean, if I hit something like middle pair, a gutshot straight draw, and a runner runner flush draw, I'll see a cheap turn, but other than that I'm usually out of the hand. I'll bet with top pair middle kicker or better, raise with top pair 2nd kicker or better, and reraise with bottom two pair or better. I'm willing to go all in with top/bottom pair or better on the flop because of how many players are willing to go all in with TPMK or worse.

I really don't think bluffing is worth it very much at all at this level of play, and I've heard the same from a lot of players on the forum and IRC, but there is one situation that happens kinda often that I do make a move on. If I'm on a flop with a single opponent -and- I have position -and- the opponent checks -and- the pot is kinda big, like 10BB or more -and- the flop looks like something that would of hit me/missed my opponent based on preflop action, then if it seems right I'll throw out a 3/4th pot-sized or so continuation bet. If I run into resistance, I'm out of the hand unless I stumble into a monster.

III. After the Flop

If I feel I've got a made hand vs. a draw, and even if the villian calls something like a pot-sized bet on the flop then the turn completes a flush or oesd draw, I'll be very careful and will often lay down to an oversized bet/raise unless I have a redraw -and- I think there's a good chance the guy doesn't have the hand he's representing.

I look forward to reading feedback. I think.

fish.

{This post has been removed}

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

OK well IMO you are formulating your approach to an unpredictable game way too much.

Low limit holdem is situational and you arent including hands in position like 7/9s, 10/8s etc...not to mention the bluff factor

Starting hands are all fine and dandy Spoon...but your biggest pots will come from unlikely starting hands. You arent even addressing resteals, or playing a junk flush draw or calling big raises out of position with crap looking to check raise A/K, A/Q etc that missed.

This approach is far too simplified not to mention predictable. NL ring is a platform where you should be mixing it up and attempting different manuevers...not just camping and raising with A/K etc.

Okay, I've always heard that steals, resteals, and bluffing in general isn't generally a very good idea at 10NL, so how can you justify calling a big raise out of position with crap? This is exactly what the people do that I consistantly beat so, what makes me playing this way different from them?

Well, I think you have mastered the first step, which is learning what good cards actually are. So much of what people learn about poker is from tv where you see so many guys pushing with hands like 55 versus AJ late in tourneys that new players tend to overvalue hands like these in a ring game.

You also seem to understand that position is important which is another huge bonus point.

Rippy's point is important though also. You can't play by a formula for too long, because at some point, your opps (especially with PokerTracker) will have you read like a book. Ripp's style of play is much more aggressive and risky than others, but he also nets huge windfalls when his 47 hits a flop of 356 and more importantly he can fold that hand when the flop is 7QA.

I think your foundation is very good - you just gotta start mixing up your game a bit more to start getting those big pots.

Steals, Resteals, c-bets, bluffs, trying to catch c-bets is spewing at 10nl alot of the time IMO. So is worrying about predictibility. Your approach is good Spoon.

I don't know about raising hands like KJ though, I like to limp. I'm trying to ponder this in Stratagies at the moment, so you raise in MP thing could be good, its close. Read the 19 hands thread.

Make a formula and play it till you reach 100nl. It works, period.

Don't get fancy in a place where people pay off with their stack with TPWK in unraised pots.

Your br will grow, you will become more experienced and your confidence will grow. As you move up in limits you will start playing against more aware opponents, NOW is the time to start mixing things up. Maybe at 50NL, but more likely at 100NL (that's where I really started to mix up things).

Also if you're playing against a bunch of LAGs there's no point in taking risks with marginal hands. You're playing poker to make money, not to boost your ego, right?

Edit: one little thing, don't raise more or less based on hand strenght, that's one thing that even 10NL players understand more or less

Why are you raising KJ from MP in a ring game that I assume is highly loose passive?

Remember in ring games it can be profitable to call up to a 5xBB raise with ANY pocket pair.

The simple formula for 10NL/25NL and 50NL is fine. Play tight.
Whats tight?
Well raise your good hands so AK/AQ AJ and KQ in position, which doesnt mean utg. I think u can limp AJ/KQ in ep anyway because the tables are so passive. Just remeber not to call raises with dominated hands, then you arent going to pay off better hands.
Limp pps and call upto 10bbs imo to try and flop a set. And play sets and two pair fast, dont slow play. You'll get called down by top pair anyway o someone will chase a daft draw.
If they bet big then they usually have it, so laying down and not paying off draws (depsite bad pot odds is most important)
Basically, 10NL-50NL is about playing ABC poker, the things we tlk about all the time. The usefull thing is that you know when you are beaten, opps let you know, so dont bluff dont call 'seeming bluffs' as they arent bluffs at all.
With good discipline its easy enough, the probelm is you want to play too many hands, i know i was there like evryone else at one time. SO play position especially well and where possible see cheap flops. And dont be afraid to check, you cant win every pot you enter/raise!
Note: only play suited stuff in lp where there are three or more limpers in the pot which is quite often as so many see the flop.
Also make your standard preflop raise 4bbs probably 5bbs at really fishy tables.
Thats how i remember playing it.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

The simple formula for 10NL/25NL and 50NL is fine. Play tight.
Whats tight?
Well raise your good hands so AK/AQ AJ and KQ in position, which doesnt mean utg. I think u can limp AJ/KQ in ep anyway because the tables are so passive. Just remeber not to call raises with dominated hands, then you arent going to pay off better hands.
Limp pps and call upto 10bbs imo to try and flop a set. And play sets and two pair fast, dont slow play. You'll get called down by top pair anyway o someone will chase a daft draw.
If they bet big then they usually have it, so laying down and not paying off draws (depsite bad pot odds is most important)
Basically, 10NL-50NL is about playing ABC poker, the things we tlk about all the time. The usefull thing is that you know when you are beaten, opps let you know, so dont bluff dont call 'seeming bluffs' as they arent bluffs at all.
With good discipline its easy enough, the probelm is you want to play too many hands, i know i was there like evryone else at one time. SO play position especially well and where possible see cheap flops. And dont be afraid to check, you cant win every pot you enter/raise!
Note: only play suited stuff in lp where there are three or more limpers in the pot which is quite often as so many see the flop.
Also make your standard preflop raise 4bbs probably 5bbs at really fishy tables.
Thats how i remember playing it.

This is a great post that summarizes low-limit NL cash games pretty well. nh Miffy.

I also agree with Rippy here:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

you are formulating your approach to an unpredictable game way too much.

As NLHE is very unpredictable, and even lower limits require adaptation in certain spots, I think a formulaic and solid strategy will get the money if you're just starting out and can't really handle constant changes in table texture, the "bluff factor" and all the things that we're all used to.

Position is so important at any level.

So is mixing it up. You can't play the same way every time or you're going to get burned up at higher levels, but at 10NL and just starting out, you should instead focus on playing a solid, tight game and making sure you have the best of it when you get your money in.

I disagree with Ripptyde in this case. I think spoon has the perfect approach to 10NL, and believe with an intelligence level enough to formulate such a sound and perfect plan that is limit specific, he will go a long way with poker. I think later on you really need to incorporate a lot of stuff Ripptyde uses. I think Ripptyde doesn't realize how good he is at his own style, and that it's not a piece of cake to adopt thin lines accompanied by sound reads. I think this is especially true for newer players. Spoon, it sounds like you will eventually be able to add extra tools to your arsenal with ease, and I wish you luck.

I don't agree with all your thoughts, but the approach is good and valuable everywhere. Rippy makes good points, but folks, RIPPTYDE HAS TALENT. So, for the rest of us smoes who don't have Rippy-reads and Rippy-balls and Rippy-experience, having a basic strategy that we play by and refine as we grow is maybe the best we can do.

Rippy on the other hand is like Chevy Chase in Caddyshack, doing putting practice nanananana.... in the hole. nananana... in the hole again.

(blushing yet ripptyde?) Good approach to the game Spoon. As you are playing your strategy explore other variation in your head, watch how other consistent winners approach their game, sneak up and lurk on higher buyin tables and watch the play. Think "what would Rippy do" lol. Hell, track Rippy down and watch him play. I think if you were try to put a mathematical model to it, you would have to use Quantum Math or something. lol

nice post.

Better yet, stake him.

lol

I am starting to learn the "he really isn't bluffing" idea the hard way. A big raise a lot of the time at the low limits means a big hand. I have lost several big pots because I wanted to be the table sherriff and pick a bluff off. I am not good enough at reading yet to do that. And definitely learning that bluffing is not worth it. People love to call just to see what you have and then thump their chest if they pick you off.

lol. think of it this way - the players at nl10 are really passive players. they play weak. So if someone is coming out of the gate firing hard, there's probably a reason. Now preflop raises don't mean as much as they would on another table. But you need to believe ANY reraise postflop. It's not worth it to ignore them. That's where you lose all your gains for the session against trips, a funky straight or whatever. If people are calling with weak hands postflop there's no point in bluffing. Only bluff a table that has shown they are willing to day down hands postflop to a nice sized bet or raise - I doubt there's a nl10 table in existence that can do that, btw.

gl

Don't try and sherriff bluffs unless you have repeated proof that a player makes them. This means you'll have to lay down your TPTK the first two or three times it happens, but if you can spot his betting patterns and get a genuinely strong read, you may find you can force the issue and win a big pot. Bear in mind, though, that most bluffers will stop bluffing once they get caught a couple of times, especially if it's by the same person.

A simple reply from someone who is not-much-past-noob after more than a year.
"Starting Cards" are great, but those really great hands -- AA, KK, QQ -- are only good preflop. I want to raise to control their behavior, not because I have great starting hands. How do I want to control their behavior? Do I want one caller (AA, KK) ? Do I want no callers (JJ, TT) ? Do I want 4 callers (44) ? Some of those 10NL Boss tables cannot be easily controlled, so then it becomes a matter of position -- looking for signs of weakness or strength in front of you, playing your "good cards" carefully.

Just thought I'd post my results for the past week at 10nl on Bodog.

I'm just a hair over +$200 after about 25-30 hours of play.

can't argue with success

This is an excellent post. AOK i'd like to know if you or anyone else can offer a good or ideal winrate at 10NL? I usuall start with the max $10 bucks, but after playing an hour or two I am only up $ or maybe doubled a buyin. What steaps can I take to crush this amount? Or do I need to stay at the table for four hours?

My background is as such; I have been playing since July 05. I have been playing most SNG and MTT on Pokerstars. Well, after multiple reloads and reloads and finishing off my bankroll on Pokerstars. I had $25 left on UB. Well, on Monday, I figured the only way to grow my br right off is to play cash games.

Well, I never really play cash games, but, I put away the fear of them and I have become the grinder. Here are some of my observations about 10NL:

1) Play good and tight hands preflop. Playing Gus Hansenque like hands early on get you nowhere.

2)Small Blinds. I don't have pokertracker, but I don't need PT to know that unless you have a monster hand out of that position, give it up. The idea that you are seeing a cheap flop is erroneous. You're completeing the bet and leaking off $.

3)Ace rags. In tourneys, I would limp with Ax and see flop. Recently through experience and reading(Harrington on Holdem is great) i have give up on the filthy rags. For the first time starting this week, I have thrown away Ace Eight and below on every occassion when its not checked to me in the Big Blind. Oh how it has help. On one ocassion last night when I felt that I had to open my play up in order to "capitalize" on cold cards, I would play Ax. I'd hit my pair and at the showdown, my opponent would beat me with a higher kicker. MUCK EM!!!

4)Bluffing. It was said on here by someone else once that if someone reraises you allin they probably have got you pegged. Well guess what, BELIEVE THEM!!! Even at the 10NL the players know that if they have a set, straight or a flush or higher, they can destack you with these hands and are very willing to go allin. If you want to be a sheriff go to your local county courthouse. It pays more( and least they give you a gun. Ooorahhh!! Marine Corps!!). Oh how stupid you feel after your top pair is crushed by that guy who went allin after the flop. Sure he could be bluffing, but that trip 4s or 99 will show otherwise.

Well, those are some of what I have learned. Some of it the hard way. My biggest problem in poker is having discipline. AOK or someone else who is a winning player, I love for you to do a post on this. Discipline is what causes you to laydown that monster hand when you read is saying you are beat. Discipline is what says don't leak off chips trying to 'MAKE' something happen.

This post sucks and I'm a fish.

Just thought I'd share

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

This post sucks and I'm a fish.

Just thought I'd share

Well, that may be so, but I wasn't attempting to be deep and real insightful. I was relaying my observations at 10NL. I AOK said, cant argue with success. You also have to remember, what level of competition and skill are you competing at? I have crushed the tables at Pacific and Bodog because people such as you were playing there, but I nearly was pulling my hair out from the pitiful software on these sites, whereas at UB an Pokerstars the players are more skillful. I have been playing for seven months; while I am not at the level that I would like to be at, I believe that I at showing great improvement. And so shall you. Spoon you sound like some immature kid with that last post and remember, we are here to learn from one another. Instead of say this post sucks, how about pointing out what you like or dislike or agree or disagree with that post. THAT'S CALLED A DISCUSSION! From there I learn a point of view that I may not have known or confirm something I already did. That's what we are here for; not the putdown. Something to thing about.

dont sweat it spoon i think he missed ur point.

As for kashpot i think you have totally misread the situation. Spoon is a pretty decent low limit player and i think you have fallen foul of his sense of humor.

remember kashpot... " we are here to not insult one another by calling each other immature kids" or however that famous lincoln speech goes...

Oh ok

I did miss the sarcaism in his response. No harm no foul. Kool.

Noone has yet to answer my question. What methods do you use to extract the most cash from your sessions?

Originally Posted by kashpot

Noone has yet to answer my question. What methods do you use to extract the most cash from your sessions?

The reason noone has answered is because you are essentially asking "how do I play poker really really well?" The fact is answering your question is pretty much what this entire site is about.

I try and play the best hands and only show them down when I am winning. I dont try to bluff (or even cbet) too much because these guys like to call. I try and make reads to spot the occasional good players at this limit so I know when they are calling me they actually have something and I also try and play all my hands correctly so i post plenty of them to get advice on what I should have done.

Thanks for the response. That helps. Maybe I didnt post the question properly. I am currently building my bankroll and over the last week have increased if more than I have in the previous six months of play. However, I play for 1-2.5 hours a day and after all of tht time, I will have made only $15-$30 person session. At 10nl, is this the expectation or should I be making more when I am winning?
Also, in my initial post, I mentioned that all of my experience has been in tournement play. In tournement play, I am aggressive and a good winner. In cash games, I am still getting pass the idea that each bet is money. Whereas on a $5 sng, the most i can lose is my buyin. In a cash game. I can lose more than that in one or two really bad hands.

if a session is say...2 hours and you get delt......50 hands/ hours

Then you are talking 100 hands in a session.

$15 is 150 Big Blinds = 75 PTBB


75PTBB/100 is insanely high and I very much doubt you will be able to keep it up long term. In short, you are easily winning at a comfortable rate. Id make a guess that you are on a monster run of cards right now too . I think a good player at these limits would probably manage 20BB/100 since the players are so bad but more than that would take a lot of skill.

edit: WEll maybe you could go as high as 30 or 40.... but 75 is still insane

Originally Posted by Pelion

if a session is say...2 hours and you get delt......50 hands/ hours

Then you are talking 100 hands in a session.

$15 is 150 Big Blinds = 75 PTBB


75PTBB/100 is insanely high and I very much doubt you will be able to keep it up long term. In short, you are easily winning at a comfortable rate. Id make a guess that you are on a monster run of cards right now too . I think a good player at these limits would probably manage 20BB/100 since the players are so bad but more than that would take a lot of skill.

edit: WEll maybe you could go as high as 30 or 40.... but 75 is still insane

I don't think kashpot realized I was the original poster, hehe.

Anyway, at 10nl on Bodog where I'm swimming around now, I get on average 150 hands an hour three-tabling. I've only been keeping record of how many hands were played for my last 10-11 hours, but the number is fairly accurate. Also, I don't think he's exaggerating about having 70+ BB/100 hands; over my past 1700 hands I'm +63 BB/100 hands. The play is really that bad, though like one of you guys said, I doubt the same BB/100 could be kept up on other stronger servers, like PokerStars.

But enough, I'm going to play 25nl this weekend, gl me.

gl you :d

i am now a permentent paradise 10NL geezer. Hopefully ill get up to 25NL soon. thats my target forever so i can bonus whore and get a bit more experience. then i can play some cash and tourny at 25 or 50NL al along side those all time british greats as snappit and hoofhearted and ill become famous on PNL yay