My Low-Mid PP strategy, massive EV+

Rather than turn the SC thread into a set thread, I thought I'd create a new thread. This may be "rehash" to some, but there is some debate about whether or not to raise with mid PP. I don't like to raise, and I want to explain why its EV+ to simply call others raises with low/mid PP.

Also, I see some people folding PP's too easily. I want to share my strategy that has worked for me. (hopefully someone else may start an equivalent thread for suited connectors, one of my big weaknesses

Also, in no way am I saying I am some authority on all this. I am simply sharing my strategy in hopes that:

- Others may benefit
- Others may make useful suggestions to improve my and others game

My recent stats:



Pokerromance said:

zook. you raise pocket pairs a lot.
zook and mixchange - you both see a very high number of flops with pocket pairs.
im surprised at these high stats.
i actually fold low pockets in early position. utg i think ill fold 66-22. and ill only start playing all of them in midposition.
ill raise pockets when in mid to late position if there have been no raises. 77 and 88 i might raise in early position and 99+ i will always raise in ep.
i play 25NL.

Pokerromance is missing a TON of value. The #1 easiest way to get paid in online poker for me is to flop sets and get paid.

Fnord worked on the math (Try to read this thread also before replying):
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/poker-83.htm

He uses the 10X rule. I use between 10x-15x depending on my opponent and how aggro or nitty they are.


My Theory (Adopted from experience, people on the board, & Phil Gordon's green book):

Pre-flop Situations

- I want to call any raise which gives me "stackable" odds. I.e. you play pocket pairs to take their whole stack by flopping a set.

- Pick the multiplier you want to use ( fnord did the big details read his thread I am being VERY rough here) i.e. how likely you are to hit your set times how likely they are to stack off. In general, this means villain's bet times your multiplier must be equal or less to villains stack size.

I don't want to use this thread to debate which multiplier to use really, as it can vary by limit, by skill level at a given table, style at a table, etc. obviously open to other points, but there are other multiplier threads.

However, some rough points:

- Aggro opponents capable of a big bluff, you can use the 10x rule.
- Nitty/Rocks, use the 15x.
- Obviously, some players are in between. Never go below 10x though, as Fnord's math clearly shows its not profitable.
- As the preflop bet gets higher, the likelyhood they will stack off is increased (probably AA, KK, QQ) so I use a smaller multiplier (9x)for preflop raises such as 6xbb+ and higher for smaller raises, such as 3x bb I use 15x

- Ignore position in relation to your calling. This may sound counter-intuitive to all poker advice, but in this case position isn't that big of an issue as you aren't trying to "outplay" your opponents, but more so trying to land a made hand, which is easy to play from any position. Not that position won't matter POST flop, but you should never fold a PP based on what position you will be in, you should only fold a PP based on the bet size/stack ratio of raising villain.

Better players may be able to use position if you have an overpair post-flop, but in terms of your decision to call, position should not be a factor because you are either hitting your set, or you are not. Very straightforward.

- pay close attention to villain's position to figure out what villain might have , e.g. his hand range at that position and bet size You need to be paying attention already at the table, this will help a lot post flop in deciding how fast to speed up or slow down with them when the set hits.

- The best hands you can be up against is AA or KK. This may sound odd, but these are the hands that will be most willing to stack off.

- Always be calling, do not raise. E.g. In early position just call, and let others do the raising. As BB, if raised with proper odds, simply call. This helps villain feel "in control" of the hand, and doesn't force you to invest any money unneccessarily. It also frequently prices others in who may hit something like 2p and will stack off. You will occasionally need to raise with these hands or villains may figure out your set farming system. Best time to do so is on the button, but also do it sometimes from EP or LP just to mix it up occasionally.

- If you are at a table for a long time with several players and shown pps several times, or have stacked a couple opponents previously, consider mixing up your strategy/betting patterns as set farming isn't that hard to spot once you know to look for it in someone.

- Remember you can spot Set Farmers who seem to be using this same strategy I'm discussing. Watch out for them when they show strong aggression to your large raises when you have TPTK or 2p.

Post Flop, you will end up in 2 general scenarios:
- multi-way family pots where many just called or called a modest raise (e.g. 2x bb)
- HU with one guy making a big raise, with maybe 1 other caller.


Pre-flop Examples 50NL with .25/.50 blind, This all with 22-99:

- $2 to call (4xbb) if the guy has $15 in his stack, fold.

Fnord's math says minimum in his stack would need to be 20. To start out, 15x rule I think is easier, but it depends on the situation, table, and player. So I would want $30 in his stack.

- $4 to call, opponent has $50 in his stack (8x bb raise, you are the last to call and know you can't be re-raised preflop). Instacall. Sound crazy? No, at this massive of a raise, villain probably has AA or KK and will stack off. If you hit the set, you will stack them. Do not cbet here, basically give up if you miss. Take a free card if given. I think it's much better to take a free card than to cbet.

- Nobody has raised, multiway pot. Simply call. If nobody has shown enough strength to raise, if you raise then you will push most people out, and probably end up with only one caller who will need to hit the flop hard to stack off, which won't be very likely. You have a much better chance of stacking someone if you let the others in the pot -- a trash hand like 2 5 offsuit in the BB might hit two pair on the flop of 2 5 6 rainbow with you having 66. They probably think they have you dominated, and it will be VERY easy to stack them. You want to bet hard on the flop, full pot or 2/3 pot and hope someone re-raise you. If you get re-raised, do not slowplay, re-raise back and look for them to launch all in.

Post Flop

- Don't worry about getting stacked set over set. In the long run, you will get rewarded for your willingness to go all in.

- Multiway pot all called BB, 5 players, and you flop a FH. Bet 1/2 pot. Do not slowplay, if someone 'has' their hand, they will likely re-raise. Someone probably has trips and will be willing to play with you. Try to get them all-in by Turn. Often they will have top kicker like A or king and think they have you dominated. Stack 'em, if you can on flop even.

- Multiway pot all called BB, 5 players, flop is 10c Qc 3s, you have 33. Bet full pot. Do not slowplay, this is a draw heavy board (someone could have KJ, another person a flush). If re-raised, reraise them 3x what they raised. You need to be hyper-aware of flush and straight draws in family pots. The family pot is great to let others hit, but its also more dangerous than the heads up pot because of all the drawing hands. DO NOT slowplay, bet at least full pot on each street unless you suspect a flush or straight has been completed. Feel OK about taking this medium pot down on the flop. Not worth the reverse implied odds.

- Multiway pot all called BB, 4 players, flop is 10c 9d 8d, you have 88. Bet 2/3 pot. Do not slowplay, this is a draw heavy board (someone could qj or 67, another person a flush draw). If re-raised, you are likely beat. I would proceed with caution. Don't get too invested here, be ready to fold if prudent.

- HU pot, in position, $2 raise from EP who has $50 stack. Flop is A 3 Q rainbow . You have 33. villain bets full pot. You re-raise full pot. Why? Villain is likely to either have 2 pair, or TPTK w/ AK. If the ace hits, you want to hit hard. They will think they are ahead.

- HU pot, in position, $2 raise from SB who has $50 stack. Flop is 2 3 9 rainbow. If he cbets, do a min re-raise. hopefully he catches up on turn, as he probably won't stay around too long unless something good comes up. He is probably not believing your cbet. On turn if re-raised, re-raise full pot.

- HU pot, in position, $2 raise from BB who has $50 stack. Flop is 2c 3c 9h you have 22. If he cbets, do a 3x reraise. You want to give terrible odds if he is drawing to a flush.

- Villain raises preflop $2 with $50 stack. You call, HU pot, you flop FullHouse, out of position. Bet your standard continuation bet here, 1/2 pot or whatever. If they re-raise, consider simply calling their re-raise as they may be trying to push you out (i.e. not believing your cbet). They might have something like AK or AQ, and you need them to catch up if the flop is 779 and you have 99. They might believe their ace high is best if they have AK. But re-raising will make them think you have the 77s and they may shut down. On the turn again bet, maybe 3/4- full pot, now you really want to get them going. At this point, they either have a hand or dont, try to get them all in. Always build the pot on flop, but always rev up betting on the turn. If they get invested enough by turn, they may be willing to push on river.

- Especially in family pots your set will degrade in value as straight and flush cards hit, so you want to play for stacks before its likely anyone has a made hand. Watch out on flops that have possible flushes (e.g. 3 hearts) or are co-ordinated like 7 8 9 as someone could easily have J10. Maybe make a re-raise or be the first raisers, always raise if nobody has, never check the flop), and see where you are. Be afraid of all-in on the co-ordinated flop. Best to know where you stand on the flop. If they re-raise your re-raise on 8 9 10 board, fold your set. Same with flushy board. Remember if you hit a full house on a flushy board, you can take their whole stack. Don't slowplay, they are probably trying not to "lose" you!

Cbets

This is an area with PP I am most curious about.

- I don't like cbetting if you miss your set unless it's a HU pot and you really think villain missed,...e.g villain only raises with face cards and no face cards hit. Better players I'm sure make quite a bit via cbets to steal the HU raised pots, this may just be inexperience by me.

The problem is that even with 99 and a low flop, sometmes if villain has AK, they frequently will play back at me thinking I have air, and it gets expensive quickly and I don't know if I'm dominated. I prefer not to cbet, so I can keep my investment in pots to solely by in search of sets. Better players than me may be able to also make quite a bit via cbets, but I find a lot of players won't believe your cbet and will re-raise (if they are the raiser) and this gets expensive, or you may misread villain who has an overpair.

Also, if you are in position, villain may cbet first and then your steal attempt is going to have be quite costly to work , probably 3x their bet. If they did hit or have a PP, this is a lot of money to lose.

- If you do choose to cbet missed sets in heads up pots (almost never cbet in multiway pots) keep a record of what happened and how much it cost. If you are ahead w/ cbets, great. If you are behind, time to slow down.

- To anyone that is tracking PP cbets, how are you doing so? Is there a way for me to track my results in PT with missed sets HU?

AA all the way through 22 should be your biggest cash cows with maybe stuff like AK/AQ mixed in there depending on stuff like game conditions and how well you play post-flop.

I like to raise pairs because I raise pretty much anything to build pots and to give me a chance to win the pot without showdown if I choose to go there (I'm no longer a bet-bot.) In passive games where people aren't re-raising much and often not blowing you off your hand, you may as well put in the first bump so your first act of post-flop aggression doesn't do much to define your hand.

Good post.

I think 10x is way too small if you are not winning some small pots when you miss. 15x I think is not hugely +EV. 20x is even better. Note that the more you are willing to play when you miss, the smaller effective stack you can call with pre-flop.

The reason is, most raises are NOT QQ+, they are 2 high cards. This is also why you open-raise with small pockets IN POSITION. You take small pots when you (both) miss.

As always, it really depends on your opponents. The weak-tighter they are the more you want to raise them, they will fold post flop (similarly, won't pay off when you set).

Also limping in EP with low pairs can be bad with aggressive short stacks behind you - they raise - but now you don't have odds to call, and just wasted a BB.

excellent post, for the most part, mix. my pp's NEED work. cant seem to get paid unless i raise limpers, as i raise a lot of pf pots. and that gets costly when you raise pf, and miss...a lot. lots of variance, no patience for "luck" to catch up...

now can someone do that over in my SC thread. thats the kind of advice i am looking for.

For what it's worth, my numbers are like (2500 NL50 FR hands only)

3.58 BB/Hand, 87% V$IP, 42% PFR 31% FIR... much noisier though. 22/33 are <1BB/hand and 44 is actually negative (never hit a set, lost $10 calling down a lag who had a hand).

Maybe it doesn't matter much how you play them... you win big when you hit sets, and maybe win/lose a little when you miss.

hey mix,

if you are always looking for a stack when you hit your set, what are the conditions, if any, where you slow down? 3 flush flops? double paired boards? 4 straights? or do you generally keep pushing, and take your chances?

btw, the minraising strategy made me about $20 last night over 3 hands on the 25 NL tables. i USED to hate minraisers.

Originally Posted by Chopper

hey mix,

if you are always looking for a stack when you hit your set, what are the conditions, if any, where you slow down? 3 flush flops? double paired boards? 4 straights? or do you generally keep pushing, and take your chances?

yes, you should slow down with a 3-flush especially if you are multi-way. this doesn't mean you should fold usually, just don't be as eager to get AI. you should always be willing to fold your set in the face of an obviously better hand.

Originally Posted by Chopper

excellent post, for the most part, mix. my pp's NEED work. cant seem to get paid unless i raise limpers...

how many hands have you played? it really doesn't matter if you raise pf or not especially at lower stakes bc the donk next to you is going to stack off with his AA regardless. if you have a set and someone else has an overpair or 2 pair you are going stack them. when you stack someone with a set at 25NL-100NL after raising your pp preflop, you most likely didn't stack them bc you "disguised" your hand. you most likely stacked them bc they had a pretty good 2nd best hand and couldn't get away from it.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

yes, you should slow down with a 3-flush especially if you are multi-way. this doesn't mean you should fold usually, just don't be as eager to get AI. you should always be willing to fold your set in the face of an obviously better hand.

Don't forget you potentially have 6 outs on the turn and 10 on the river. Throw out a couple since we're assuming the other player has TP, 2pair, so say 5 and 8 outs. That's still a 26% chance to catch up, if they're not betting too strongly

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

yes, you should slow down with a 3-flush especially if you are multi-way. this doesn't mean you should fold usually, just don't be as eager to get AI. you should always be willing to fold your set in the face of an obviously better hand.

Don't forget you potentially have 6 outs on the turn and 10 on the river. Throw out a couple since we're assuming the other player has TP, 2pair, so say 5 and 8 outs. That's still a 26% chance to catch up, if they're not betting too strongly

correct. i meant to say be willing to fold on the river to an obviously better hand.

so, continue (just call instead of re-pop) on with the hand and almost never fold a set until the river shows so much aggression that you are 99% sure you're beat?

i love the 10 outer on the river concept, but its still only a 20% chance (plus 5%ish for the donkey factor at 25 NL). that said, dont you still need 4:1 to call? or do you call a push anyway becasue the "guess work" of implied odds is gone? or something like that where you know the stacks are in, and no more betting/decision making can be done.

say i have over $15 left in my stack, and the pot is only $15. villain pushes me all in to a 3-flush. can i call this on a 10-outer? i think most do, but isnt it still unprofitable in the long run?

of course, if the pot were $20 and i had only $10 left... i instacall with my 4:1.

this doesnt cover the times where you bet $5 into a $8 pot, get raised to $15...and so on...sort of a "wiggle raise" situation. (inveted a term there )

could use some "fnord type math here"

btw, martin,

i have played TONS of hands (50k+), but cant get to the stats, as i have changed laptops this year...restored twice (damn porn viruses...lol)...and never bothered to transfer over my PT stats. so, basically starting from scratch...sort of.

all i mean is that my pp's are not the greatest money-makers for me...not as good as the posters.

Originally Posted by Chopper

btw, martin,

i have played TONS of hands (50k+)...

k. i was asking bc saying you don't get paid unless you raise is an odd thing to say. you should be stacking ppl regardless...it's science lol. i assume you play 50nl?

i wish. where i am "trying to get back to basics" is from the 25's again. playing full ring. here's why...

wanted to learn limit, as fish stick around at a table longer...and i figure there has to be something there to learn that will help my overall poker game. spent 3 months there.

wanted to learn 6max...more fish period, especially once you get over 100. ever try to find a fishy fr game at 400? dont know its possible. spent some months there.

overall, it helped me learn principles i NEVER would have learned if i stayed "rocking it up" at the 50 and 100 fr games. so, in short...good thing, but barely broke even over the whole combined experiences.

had to buy a new laptop, and US regs (screwing the numbers of sites and bonuses) hurt the old bankroll a bit, as i was using some for "mad cash income" to keep the wife happy.

so, though i am "rolled" for 50 (very close to 100), i wont play there until i get back to the win rate i carried before, and hit 10k hands now that i am back to fr nl. just trying to shake off some rust, but am finding it a bit different now. seems players are a bit tighter and less willing to stack off than 6 months ago...may just be me, though.

the "not getting paid unless i raise" comment is something i have noticed lately over 2000 hands (very small sample, i know). but i really noticed it at 6max, as you just cant limp a pp from ep w/o getting raised by the button. so, to grab initiative for post-flop cbet, i may as well be the one doing the raising ( this is one of the bad habits from 6max that kills you in fr, imo)...just took me 2000 hands to figure it out.

Originally Posted by Chopper

the "not getting paid unless i raise" comment is something i have noticed lately over 2000 hands (very small sample, i know). but i really noticed it at 6max, as you just cant limp a pp from ep w/o getting raised by the button. so, to grab initiative for post-flop cbet, i may as well be the one doing the raising ( this is one of the bad habits from 6max that kills you in fr, imo)...just took me 2000 hands to figure it out.

ya in full ring, it can get expensive pretty quick raising and cbetting all pp's.

i think thats where i have been going wrong. however, i did check my pp stats and i am 1.51 BB/hand...so, its not like i play them poorly. i just think i can play them better, and avoid some mistakes...like raising pf, unless trying to steal the blinds.

lol...which at the 25's lately can be done quite consistently from UTG...lol. well, at least when i have AA.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Chopper

the "not getting paid unless i raise" comment is something i have noticed lately over 2000 hands (very small sample, i know). but i really noticed it at 6max, as you just cant limp a pp from ep w/o getting raised by the button. so, to grab initiative for post-flop cbet, i may as well be the one doing the raising ( this is one of the bad habits from 6max that kills you in fr, imo)...just took me 2000 hands to figure it out.

ya in full ring, it can get expensive pretty quick raising and cbetting all pp's.

however, would you agree with this strategy in a 6max game?

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Chopper

the "not getting paid unless i raise" comment is something i have noticed lately over 2000 hands (very small sample, i know). but i really noticed it at 6max, as you just cant limp a pp from ep w/o getting raised by the button. so, to grab initiative for post-flop cbet, i may as well be the one doing the raising ( this is one of the bad habits from 6max that kills you in fr, imo)...just took me 2000 hands to figure it out.

ya in full ring, it can get expensive pretty quick raising and cbetting all pp's.

however, would you agree with this strategy in a 6max game?

id identify the key bit of this statement to concern the always c-betting not the always raising.

Originally Posted by Chopper

hey mix,

if you are always looking for a stack when you hit your set, what are the conditions, if any, where you slow down? 3 flush flops? double paired boards? 4 straights? or do you generally keep pushing, and take your chances?

btw, the minraising strategy made me about $20 last night over 3 hands on the 25 NL tables. i USED to hate minraisers.

I don't mean to be rude, but I covered these questions pretty thoroughly in my post.

Anyone have any comments about my Cbetting w/ pp questions?

anyone have any criticism of some of my situational choices?

Hey mixchange,

Its funny but I actually use the opposite strategy as you. Raising ALL pockets low/mid preflop. But I play short-handed and I'm assuming you are playing FR?

I just had a question for you or in general , with the 10/15x rule, facing a re-raise.

Suppose we raise to 4 with a pocket and villain RE-raises us to 12. How do we decide if we have proper odds to call? Do we compare the 8 more to call, with villains stack (since the four is already in the pot, so villain needs at least $80 with 10x rule), or do we compare the 12 with villain's stack, and villain needs at least $120?

Or do we not even need 10 times in this case, since we are being re-raised, and are MORE certain that villain has a very strong hand that he will stack off with?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Chopper

the "not getting paid unless i raise" comment is something i have noticed lately over 2000 hands (very small sample, i know). but i really noticed it at 6max, as you just cant limp a pp from ep w/o getting raised by the button. so, to grab initiative for post-flop cbet, i may as well be the one doing the raising ( this is one of the bad habits from 6max that kills you in fr, imo)...just took me 2000 hands to figure it out.

ya in full ring, it can get expensive pretty quick raising and cbetting all pp's.

however, would you agree with this strategy in a 6max game?

id identify the key bit of this statement to concern the always c-betting not the always raising.

yes. raising AND cbetting constantly with small-medium pp's can get really expensive really fast.

Originally Posted by mixchange

Cbets

This is an area with PP I am most curious about.

- I don't like cbetting if you miss your set unless it's a HU pot and you really think villain missed,...e.g villain only raises with face cards and no face cards hit. Better players I'm sure make quite a bit via cbets to steal the HU raised pots, this may just be inexperience by me.

Don't cbet when you have little FE. The drier the flop, the better it is to cbet usually.

The problem is that even with 99 and a low flop, sometmes if villain has AK, they frequently will play back at me thinking I have air, and it gets expensive quickly and I don't know if I'm dominated. I prefer not to cbet, so I can keep my investment in pots to solely by in search of sets. Better players than me may be able to also make quite a bit via cbets, but I find a lot of players won't believe your cbet and will re-raise (if they are the raiser) and this gets expensive, or you may misread villain who has an overpair.

It's hard for me to believe that ppl "frequently" (I take that to mean a majority of the time) play back at you with missed overs. Also, you are not cbetting if someone else raised PF and you just called them. It sounds like you are also talking about leading into the PFR which is good to do on flops where you have FE no matter what 2 cards you hold.

Also, if you are in position, villain may cbet first and then your steal attempt is going to have be quite costly to work , probably 3x their bet. If they did hit or have a PP, this is a lot of money to lose.

At lower stakes ppl generally don't lead strongly into the PFR with weak holdings often enough so when they do it you can usually put them on a TPTK or better hand IMO.

If you are ahead w/ cbets, great. If you are behind, time to slow down.

Sample size. Don't just stop doing it cuz you had a bad session.

Originally Posted by griffey24

Hey mixchange,

Its funny but I actually use the opposite strategy as you. Raising ALL pockets low/mid preflop. But I play short-handed and I'm assuming you are playing FR?

I'm playing 6 max. The strategy works well in FR too, except you need to raise faster when you hit your sets to push out drawing hands.

Have you thought about why this is not a good idea, especially with low PP? You are repping the big hand, and people are going to be sensitive of your raises. They are going to put you on a premium hand *before* the flop. You don't want that, you want the opposite situation -- someone else to be in the 'driver' seat, making the pre-flop raises, making it seem like you are making bad calls or dangerous re-raises. Best case is calling a raise while having position on them. They will likely then have to lead out betting on the flop, and you can then re-raise.

Also, by raising you thin out hands that might hit things like 2p, or shoot for expensive draws. The more people in the pot the better for you when your set hits, ESPECIALLY if you hit a FH, someone else almost for sure has 3 of a kind and will go broke.

I just had a question for you or in general , with the 10/15x rule, facing a re-raise.

Suppose we raise to 4 with a pocket and villain RE-raises us to 12. How do we decide if we have proper odds to call? Do we compare the 8 more to call, with villains stack (since the four is already in the pot, so villain needs at least $80 with 10x rule), or do we compare the 12 with villain's stack, and villain needs at least $120?

Or do we not even need 10 times in this case, since we are being re-raised, and are MORE certain that villain has a very strong hand that he will stack off with?

I just wouldn't play it all like you are. You are killing your pot odds by making the $4 raise, and not really improving your chance of stacking them much, while risking quite a bit more. Why? Say someone has AA, and that's why they were re-raising. in. Say without your $4 raise, they have to make the first raise, $4 and you just call. You could have seen the flop and had a 1/8 chance your set hit, and probably then a 75% chance you will stack villain (I think 10-12X rule is good if you suspect AA or KK, at least at 50NL people can't lay these down). By raising to $4, you have been re-raised to $12 and you no longer have odds to call and must fold.


Say you have 66 (button), one opponent has AK(sb), the other AA(bb). You called, AK raised to $2, AA raises to $4, you call. The flop comes K 6 2 rainbow. For your 2 opponents, this looks like a fantastic flop for them. The pot is $12, I would bet $7. AA is certainly going to re-raise, or if they are a slowplayer, maybe just call. Let's say they call, AK, is going to re-raise to $15. Say you just call his raise (heads up I would re-raise, but with 3 players I might just call his re-raise and try to push on the turn to get more money in the pot). AA decides to re-raise to $30, AK now has to fold or push. Let's say he folds, and now you re-raise AA all in, who definitely calls.

But if you had raised it to $4 or $2 preflop in the situation, the hand would have gotten far too expensive for you, and may have pushed out AK who really got the action going on the hand for you. You want to simply call with these hands, not raise, so that it doesn't get too expensive preflop for you and others who may make a marginal or "2nd best" type hand. If AA, KK exist, they will do the raising. If nobody has a good hand, they likely will not raise. you don't want to push these people out, you want to give them a chance to hit 2p or something if your set hits.

Basically with low/mid PP you want to see the flop cheaply and maximize the possibility that someone makes their hand

By raising preflop you push out marginal hands that may hit their hand (say 2p, or trips when you have a FH) and you will get re-raised by better hands making it too expensive for you to see the flop.

Originally Posted by mixchange

Say you have 66 (button), one opponent has AK(sb), the other AA(bb). You called, AK raised to $2, AA raises to $4, you call.

Is this $50NL? If so, calling here is a mistake with 100BB's IMO. In the longrun you'd have to win like 60BB's each time you set to break even. Not to mention you are not closing the action. Also, there are advantages and disadvantages to playing small pp's both aggressively and passively preflop, and neither style should be dismissed as "wrong."

Originally Posted by mixchange

Cbets

It's hard for me to believe that ppl "frequently" (I take that to mean a majority of the time) play back at you with missed overs. Also, you are not cbetting if someone else raised PF and you just called them. Itsounds like you are also talking about leading into the PFR which is good to do on flops where you have FE no matter what 2 cards you hold.

Maybe I am just picking the wrong flops, but often people at 50NL seem to assume that because I called their raise and they have AK, that I only have AQ or AJ and i'm just bluffing at say the follow flop: 8 6 2 rainbow, when I have 55. They assume I "couldn't have hit" and that they must be leading. So into the $4 pot I bet $3, and they come over the top with and $8 re-raise. I've had people force me to fold, only to show AK or showdown with someone else to show AK or AQ.

At lower stakes ppl generally don't lead strongly into the PFR with weak holdings often enough so when they do it you can usually put them on a TPTK or better hand IMO.

Right. In position obviously if someone is leading out, I'm likely to fold (because I'd have to re-raise with my PP to win this pot) . However, if they aren't leading out, I get re-raised a fair amount on my PP cbet. Maybe I cbet too much and its obvious? I cbet practically everytime when checked too and the board doesn't look scary.

Also, on flops where I don't think they hit, and I have a PP (I'm set mining). People with AK will "not believe you hit" or may just call you down hoping to hit something. It gets expensive.

How often do you call someone down if you strongly suspect AK or AQ and the AKQ didn't hit?




Sample size. Don't just stop doing it cuz you had a bad session.

I've had several bad sessions with Cbetting PPs. It's true most of the time villain misses the flop, but it's often hard to know if they hit on turn or river, and by that time it gets expensive.

While you save some AJ, AQ, AK hand histories for me (you said you would in the SC thread) do you mind showing some good Cbetting HHs for PPs? Villain calling the first bullet would be cool too.

Highly appreciate your comments martin, your advice has helped my game a lot. Finally AA and KK are huge winners for me, where before I would lose a lot of big pots and only win small ones, now I take down a lot of medium pots.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by mixchange

Say you have 66 (button), one opponent has AK(sb), the other AA(bb). You called, AK raised to $2, AA raises to $4, you call.

Is this $50NL? If so, calling here is a mistake with 100BB's IMO. In the longrun you'd have to win like 60BB's each time you set to break even. Not to mention you are not closing the action. Also, there are advantages and disadvantages to playing small pp's both aggressively and passively preflop, and neither style should be dismissed as "wrong."

Yes, 50NL -- I think you are right $4 HU is too much, but $3 is ok.

I see your argument, but if I smell KK or AA on 50NL the chance of people stacking off is much higher (10-12x rule) than at 100NL I think people can lay down overpairs more easily. people have a really hard time getting away from AA and KK on 50NL. Maybe $4 is a bit too much, but $3 certainly is fine HU. Rarely does $4 come up, anyway. $3 is usually the highest.

However, with two callers at $4, I think it's an easy call - doesn't your chance of stacking someone double? Plus you have the additional money the other caller may put into the pot. Two callers at $4 is almost like HU with $2, or am I wrong to think that way?

looks like a really good post. haven't read any of it. but i did read a lot of the previous thread on this topic.

i just came on to say: i love FTR! thanks for the advice. on this exact topic. i raised to 4xBB pf utg FR with 77 (i might have this play in the past) then an opponent in mid position raises to 3.5xmy bet. everybody else folds. usually i fold this because he has shown a tonne of strength and i'm quite sure i'm beat or that he'll take the pot off me on the flop unless i hit trips.
anyway this time i decided to call - listening to the advice posted here (we both had full stacks). and if i stack him im getting about 12 to 1.
anyway, i flop the 7. i check. he bets pot. i minraise (we're basically comitted if he calls my bet). he moves allin. i call. and double up!
a few minutes earlier i had a similar situation with 77 on another table and didn't flop the set. (and i was a tiny, tiny bit annoyed with FTR but realized it would be good in the long run)

it's a good feeling stacking someone as i'm sure everybody knows.

btw this does not mean i agree with everything written in this thread. but i do like some of it. (still haven't read it all).
in this strategy - there isn't really a place for a cbet since you're not the preflop aggressor and pots are quite small on the flop.
but i think cbetting and stealing pots is a completely different post to this. stealing and cbetting apply to any hand and they do not directly apply here.

great post.

i didnt read all replies, but i wonder if it´s not too easy to be read. i play exactly as recommended preflop, limp and call raises if the 10-15x rule allows me to. small and medium pp´s are 90% of hands i limp-call, everythings else i like to raise or limp-fold. i see the tags at ftp playing a similar style, which makes it somewhat easy to spot a set.

another things i like to mention, b/c i made that mistake several times, when using the 10 or 15x rule, u need to look for the effective stack in the hand. if u didnt hit rebuy or are for some other reason shortstacked, it doesnt matter if opponents stack is large enough when your own stack isnt.