my first post: players who don't process information

Hi! I've been following the discussions here for awhile-- this is hands down the best and most informed poker site I have found. I play mostly live limit hold 'em games at my local casinos here in LA-- the Commerce, the Bicycle, Hustler, and Hollywood Park. I play occasionally online on Stars in microstakes limit and no limit hold 'em and microstakes razz (my guilty pleasure). I make a small, consistent profit playing tight-aggressive limit poker in the casinos. (I do alright in live no-limit too, but only where there is a decent buy-in to big blind ratio. Unfortunately, the standard at many of the LA casinos is a minimum and maximum buy-in of about 40BB, which makes no limit something of a lottery ticket because you can't collect enough on your big hands to cover the hands where you are beat.)

I wanted to throw something out since there has been some good threads on fishes lately. When I sit down at a live table, I spend the first several hands just sizing everyone up, playing VERY nitty. Better to fold a winning hand at low cost than to lose a stack of chips to a player who I have no reads on! And in live poker, I often notice a particular type of fish who's play is most exploitable. This is the person who doesn't process information about the hand.

The reason I phrase it this way is because on many of the FTR posts you talk about various fish tendencies, e.g., calling down with weak hands, playing out of position, calling preflop raises from strong players with marginal starting hands, etc., are all versions of this. Fish bet their hands. Or they just bet. But they don't stop to think of what the other players are telling them.

Case in point. Last night playing live limit I raised from the button with Queen-10 of spades against 5 limpers. Everyone calls. Flop was 9h-Jh-2d. Under the gun bets, everyone calls. Turn was an 8 of clubs. Middle position bets, I raise (to build the pot and to potentially scare off a flush or full house draw), and small blind RE-RAISES!, folds to the cut-off who calls the re-raise. At this point, I am sensing value (I have the best hand) so I 4-bet and both players call.

River is a 6 of hearts. It is checked to me. I figure someone must of hit their flush draw, so I am not inviting a check-raise. I check.

I turn over my Queen-10 fully expecting to get beat. Nope. It was good. The small blind had Jack-2(!) and the cut-off had just a naked pair of jacks(!!!!!). Everyone else at the table was shocked. They all knew I had the straight and figured one of the other players beat me with a flush draw.

I thought a lot about this hand, because while I was happy to take down a 39xBB pot (huge for limit), I was appalled at the way these people were playing poker. I was not being deceptive. I was advertising a big hand because I had one. I had sat down only about 30 minutes earlier, had been playing tight-aggressive, and hadn't been caught bluffing (so there was no particular reason to think I was a maniac who would be 4-betting with nothing or next to nothing). The rest of the table understood what was going on. But these two players were shocked when I turned over my straight.

I took another pot from the small blind later in a situation where she underestimated my hand (I flopped two pair and she couldn't fold a pair of aces).

But the point of my story is that these players exist at every table at low limit live poker. Indeed, I watch for them. I'll fold a hand and then watch as the board pairs on the turn, a player check raises them, and they still call all the way down to the river to see the check-raiser turn over his trips. 3 suited cards will come on the flop, and an established good player with a big stack will flat-call an out of position flop bet, flat-call another bet on the turn, and then raise the river, and the initial bettor will still pay to see the guy's flush. A good player who hasn't made a pre-flop raise in 25 hands will make one from the small blind, get 5 callers, flop Ace-King-3, and get callers all the way down to the river where he shows AA, KK, or AK.

And they exist online too, at least at the microstakes.

So I have a thought in trying to develop more sophisticated reads of players. Watch for this. Especially on hands you aren't playing. Try and figure out what players at the table are processing information. When someone represents a big hand, who folds and who stays in? What players are staying in too many streets and then folding on the river? What players are willing to lay down apparent big hands (e.g., representing a big pocket pair with pre-flop raises and big bets on the flop) when it becomes obvious that someone has drawn out a bigger hand.

At a poker table, some players are paying attention to the things the other players are doing, some players will eventually get the point but pour too much of their money into the pot before they do so, and some players seem to know exactly what is going on. Have that in mind at all time. And when you get into a big pot, know which category the guy who is in it with you falls in.

In any event, I thought this might generate some discussion.

Thanks for this post. Im currentyl re-reading Harington on poker.

His words "Observing players is a key skill at the poker table"

in limit it's not a huge mistake to bet every street with a hand despite the feeling you are beat because you'll get calls from complete morons who think their 3rd pair is good at least some of the time

Originally Posted by iopq

in limit it's not a huge mistake to bet every street with a hand despite the feeling you are beat because you'll get calls from complete morons who think their 3rd pair is good at least some of the time

I would respectfully suggest that while that may be true as a general statement about low stakes limit players, making this sort of generalization is very dangerous and, in fact, is exactly the sort of reasoning that can get someone sucked into a huge pot while either drawing dead or with very few live outs. (And remember, it could have been even worse than it was-- if no heart and no paired board comes on the river, I am betting and they may decide they are "pot committed"-- don't get me started on that one!-- and throw even more money down the rathole.)

Unless I have a good specific reason, based on the person's prior play, to think that the person who is representing his nut straight doesn't have one, I am not likely to be re-raising the turn. Indeed, I am not even calling it unless the pot odds are in my favor to draw out. Two pair against a made straight on an unpaired board means 4 outs. To even call a 2-bet on the turn (i.e., 4 x the big blind) with 4 outs, the pot better be something like 44 x the big blind as of the turn. That's a once-in-a-lifetime situation in limit.

In any event, the point of my post was not to bore you with details about live limit hold 'em. It was to make a point that applies to no limit too and that is a perfect thing for beginning players to be thinking about. Which is, at all times, it is good to know which players at the table process information and how fast they will get out of hands once they process it. That's a crucial skill in determining whether and how you want to bet your hand.