My 1y FTR IRC Anniv: Ask me anything about the game of Without Limit Holding Them

(yes, this thread title is a nod to Lukie, get over it plx kthx)

Today is my 1 year anniversary of hanging out in FTR's IRC chatroom. During this time, I have collected many knowledges about the game of Without Limit Holding Them. Please use this thread to ask me anything you like, and I will do my best to divulge my incomparable knowledges.

SrslySirius (grnydrowave, apparently, and inexplicably) gets the ball rolling... and celtic thunder, to a lesser extent:

<Penneywize> sup
<Penneywize> it's muh 1 year anniversary
<Penneywize> of bein an IRC reg
<Penneywize> thoughts?
<celthunder> irc in general or here
<SrslySirius> well
<SrslySirius> did you make your metric fuckton?
<Penneywize> wtf
<Penneywize> this IRC
<Penneywize> FTR IRC reg
<Penneywize> ldo
<Penneywize> uh
<Penneywize> metric fuckton
<Penneywize> is a relative term I assume?
<Penneywize> I started with 70$ and turned it into 1300, but that was over only like 6 months, I've only played 3600 hands since october
<Penneywize> other questions?


I will answer questions in IRC as well.

Congrats on the 1yr

Why only 3600 hands since October?

Originally Posted by Shotglass

Congrats on the 1yr

Why only 3600 hands since October?

As it turns out, I am an overaged undergrad completing an Honours degree in Economics. Next year, in all likelihood, will be an MA.

So I had to get my shit in gear and pwn up the top-level courses to assure entry into a top school. Time will tell whether my efforts were worthwhile.

Ah, gl with it.

You must have a better question, sir. I need a threadsaver. This is going south very, very quickly.

Do you have any experience with MTT's and if so here's a situation I found myself in recently:

10+1 buy in with about 4000 entrants 80 away from the $$$ and I've got an m of about 25.

A 19 m stack goes AI. I call with AA. He shows KK and pulls a third on the river. So now I've got an m of 6 but the blinds are about to increase leaving me with an m of about 4 or less. Is it better to take a reasonable hand and try to double up before the bubble, in essence trying to rebuild the stack and make it to the FT; or would it be better to just blind out till the bubble bursts to win back my BI+.

I'd have to double up 3 or 4 times just to get back to about middle of the pack.

Originally Posted by Shotglass

Do you have any experience with MTT's and if so here's a situation I found myself in recently:

10+1 buy in with about 4000 entrants 80 away from the $$$ and I've got an m of about 25.

A 19 m stack goes AI. I call with AA and he shows KK and pulls a third on the river. So now I've got an m of 6 but the linds are about to increase leaving me with an m of about 4. Is it better to take a reasonable hand and try to double up before the bubble, in essence trying to rebuild the stack and make it to the FT; or would it be better to just blind out till the bubble bursts to win back my BI+.

I'd have to double up 3 or 4 times just to get back to about middle of the pack.

Yes, from 2003 to 2009 I was a microstakes MTT donk, break-even mostly, aside from a 9k-win luckbox one day (1st in a 24$, 1700-man tourney).

/THINLY VEILED BRAG

Okay, allow me to enlighten you on the finer points of how to play after losing AA<KK when shortstacked and close to the money in a donkament.

Push the following hands, from the following positions:

SB: Literally everything, 68% of all two-card hand combos. I won't list them all here, pull it up on pokerstove if you're really interested. Fairly standard though.
BUT: 22+, A2+, K6o+, K2s+, Q9o+, Q6s+, JTo+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s
CO: 22+, A2+, KTo+, K6s+, QTo+, Q8s+, JTo+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s
HJ: 22+, A4o+, A2s+, KTo+, K9s+, QJo, Q9s+, JTo, J9s+, T8s+, 98s
MP3: 22+, A7o+, A2s+, KJo+, K9s+, QJo,Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s
MP2: 22+, A9o+, A3s+, KJo+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s
MP1: 33+, ATo+, A7s+, A5s, KQo, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s
EP: 44+, ATo+, A8s+, KQo, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s
UTG: 44+, AJ0+, A9s+, KQo, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s

If there are antes, the entire above list is different. And, if you're REALLY close to the money, the entire list is different. And, if you double up, or your stack changes at all, then the entire list is different.

My advice: if you want to be a real baller, memorize the above list and every other list that is needed so you can have an encyclopedic knowledge of what to push from where and with what stack size and what situation.

Or just buy a copy of Kill Everyone..............

yeah that last one might be a little easier.

Originally Posted by Penneywize

SB: Literally everything, 68% of all two-card hand combos. I won't list them all here, pull it up on pokerstove if you're really interested. Fairly standard though.
BUT: 22+, A2+, K6o+, K2s+, Q9o+, Q6s+, JTo+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s
CO: 22+, A2+, KTo+, K6s+, QTo+, Q8s+, JTo+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s
HJ: 22+, A4o+, A2s+, KTo+, K9s+, QJo, Q9s+, JTo, J9s+, T8s+, 98s
MP3: 22+, A7o+, A2s+, KJo+, K9s+, QJo,Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s
MP2: 22+, A9o+, A3s+, KJo+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s
MP1: 33+, ATo+, A7s+, A5s, KQo, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s
EP: 44+, ATo+, A8s+, KQo, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s
UTG: 44+, AJ0+, A9s+, KQo, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s

It has been brought to my attention that this list is stupid. If you can fold your way into the money, you should tighten up considerably. I would go with the following:

SB: 53.2% of hands
BUT: 22+, A2+, KTo+, K7s+, QTo+, Q8s+, JTo, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s
CO: 22+, A8o+, A2s+, KJo+, K9s+, QJo, Q9s+, JTo, J8s+, T8s+, 98s
HJ: 33+, ATo+, A7s+, A5s, KJo+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s
MP3: 44+, AJo+, A8s+, KQo, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s
MP2: 66+, AJo+, A9s+, KQo, KTs+, QTs+, JTs
MP1: 88+, AQo+, ATs+, A5s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs
EP: 88+, AQo+, ATs+, A5s, A4s, Kts+, QJs
UTG: 99+, AQo+, ATs+, A5s, A4s, A3s, KJs+, QJs

BAM.

Post one hand and describe every detail of your thought process, or describe a hand you saw.

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Post one hand and describe every detail of your thought process, or describe a hand you saw.

I would just like to say that I want to answer this question.

Kill Everyone

Cool, who wrote that?

Originally Posted by Shotglass

Cool, who wrote that?

Lee Nelson
Tysen Streib

and, as an added bonus, some annoying and largely useless commentary by Bertrand "Elky" Grospellier.

The book is gold though. Highly recommend if you're an MTT grinder. Must read. Consider it the NLHE Theory & Practice of the Multi-Table Tournament game.

i'm in a 180-man SnG, 27 players left, money starts at 18. i accidentally my fleshlight. what do i do now?

Originally Posted by surviva316

i'm in a 180-man SnG, 27 players left, money starts at 18. i accidentally my fleshlight. what do i do now?

You accidentally what?

what do you think about my game?

Originally Posted by reDZill4

what do you think about my game?

When you are not viciously insulting me, I think you are the bee's knees.

But this never happens. The rest of the time I just think you're fine/good at the game of Without Limit Holding Them.


Edit: by fine/good I mean uber pro etc.

Originally Posted by Penneywize

You accidentally what?

my fleshlight

Originally Posted by surviva316

my fleshlight

The whole fleshlight?

list your top 5 ways of improving as a player (in order from best to worst)

why do u use 120bi broll management for micros????

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

why do u use 120bi broll management for micros????

edit: fixed image again.

edit x2: now harley's reply in the next post makes no sense, haha.

edit x3: now it's back to the right image. I think the last one was funnier.

Originally Posted by Penneywize

GOOD ANSWER SIR!

i've never understood this article, and hence, have always stayed away from rebuy tourney's despite how fishy they are:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...gy-106184.html

is a rebuy tourney really ANY different from a regular tourney where a SHITTONNE of people are rebuying?! i mean, other than really minor stuff that doens't effect ev that much like metagame and reads, how is rebuying any different from late registry? so i understand always purchasing the add ons, but why should you play super spewy and rebuy ten times and all that crap? isn't it just ev to play it like a normal tourney with a huge registry pool, where you have to play a lot lighter 'cause people are spewing?

Originally Posted by surviva316

i've never understood this article, and hence, have always stayed away from rebuy tourney's despite how fishy they are:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...gy-106184.html

is a rebuy tourney really ANY different from a regular tourney where a SHITTONNE of people are rebuying?! i mean, other than really minor stuff that doens't effect ev that much like metagame and reads, how is rebuying any different from late registry? so i understand always purchasing the add ons, but why should you play super spewy and rebuy ten times and all that crap? isn't it just ev to play it like a normal tourney with a huge registry pool, where you have to play a lot lighter 'cause people are spewing?

Good question sir. Personally I can't stomach rebuys and generally avoid them. That being said, if I am adequately rolled, and properly motivated, I might try my hand at them. The guide you linked however is 6 years old, I really don't know how much, if any, of that stuff still applies.

All that being said, it's not a bad idea to play these with the intention of identifying favourable preflop AI situations (towards the end of the rebuy hour, players get awfully loose, shoving any two etc) and rolling the dice with a couple buy-ins in an effort to build up a decent stack going into the first break. I personally wouldn't recommend the whole 'commit yourself to spending 8 buy-ins and make sure you at least quadruple up before the add-on period' mentality, but I imagine it works for some. Seems high variance though, given how little the advantage of having a large stack that early on in a tourney means. Bear in mind that everyone will be INCREDIBLY deep relative to the blinds following the first hour, and MTT players aren't, in general, that great at playing deep. Any cash reg has a huge edge at this point of a rebuy tourney, imo.

It's also not out of the question to just double-buy-in and get an add-on, and essentially play it like a cubed tourney; this would be more along the lines of what you said, playing very tight etc and generally following the same playstyle you normally would in an MTT. This isn't to say you'd fold anything but KK/AA pre; if you figure out a given player is shoving light, say top 30% of hands or so, you're well within your rights to cold call his shove with AQo+ etc.

I was gonna pm you after our last short chat but maybe posting here will help more people.

I have a hard time keeping up in irc coz my typing skills are shite. This usually leads to me leaving irc feeling like a moron. Any advice for newbs who want to get in on the conversation but aren't very computer literate?

Inb4 take a f'ing typing class.

Originally Posted by supahaole

I was gonna pm you after our last short chat but maybe posting here will help more people.

I have a hard time keeping up in irc coz my typing skills are shite. This usually leads to me leaving irc feeling like a moron. Any advice for newbs who want to get in on the conversation but aren't very computer literate?

Inb4 take a f'ing typing class.

Well, I can't imagine you're as slow a typer as you seem to think you are, unless it took you 10+ mins to write that I think you'd be fine. The main thing with getting used to IRC is understanding and accepting how much you will tilt the regulars with the stupid hands you will post in the chat. You might get chastised a bit, but you'll get over it, and be a better player in the long run.

Overall, just find your comfort zone. You don't need to be everyone's favourite person. Treat it like a learning experience and don't be easily dissuaded from posting your own input, even if it does end up being egregiously wrong. There really is no better way to learn, short of sweat sessions on skype - and FTR IRC is a great way to go about setting up such sessions, ldo.

I should mention that the mass skype sweats started by newfish, where he invites literally FUCKING EVERYONE on his contact list, are usually a complete waste of time. But with newfish, you've just got to take the good with the bad and deal with it.

EDIT: also beware of Yaawn's seemingly incessant walls of text. There are nuggets of wisdom throughout, but, jesus fucking christ man. l2write a paragraph.

um,

did I just kill my thrad with two long poasts?

if so,

Join Date: Jan '05
Posts: 709

Why is this?

Why do they call it no limit when you are limited by your stack?

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

Join Date: Jan '05
Posts: 709

Why is this?

Excellent question. First I will refer you to this thread:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post1000474

So you can see HOW FAR I'VE COME in 6 years. (The best part of the thread is towards the bottom, imo)

Secondly:

The reason I have so few posts is that back in '05, I posted quite a bit, really committed myself to learning the game etc, and racked up 100 or so posts. Then something happened.

I began to think I was awesome.

I stopped coming to FTR, except to lurk every now and then. I played a shitload of MTTs, being mostly breakeven / slight winner over a long stretch.

Then I didn't play poker for like 2 years, and tried to make a comeback in 2007. Didn't realize that 1) UIGEA happened 2) Players got better 3) there existed such thing as a HUD etc. So I sucked and lost a fair amount, several hundred dollars I would assume.

Finally in '08 I started posting again from time to time. My first post when I got back was something to the effect 'hey why do you guys keep mentioning these stats like 25/16, I have no idea what they mean plz halp!'

Needless to say I continued to suck for about another year. In '09, I became a regular poster, eventually switching from MTTs to 2NL and working my way up. Now I'm a 10 NLer with a bankroll to play 50 NL.

TL;DR:
- beat games when games were easy
- thought I was good, stopped posting
- came back when I realized I sucked
- became regular poster
- game improved, now I'm a microstakes balla.

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

Why do they call it no limit when you are limited by your stack?

I have no idea, you just blew my mind sir.

tell me this penny... why do i play a very good game 3-4 days in a row, and then i fck myself playing like a jackass, and then again 3-4 days a play a great game, then again a day i play like a stupid jackass?

Originally Posted by Razvan729

tell me this penny... why do i play a very good game 3-4 days in a row, and then i fck myself playing like a jackass, and then again 3-4 days a play a great game, then again a day i play like a stupid jackass?

Variance exists in all aspects of life, sir. I would suggest that the standard deviation of your mental state is quite large, and so one in four days you may swing from being calm, cool and collected to being a nutso maniac.

In seriousness, I would assume that given the stakes you play and your recent results, you probably just have quite a few leaks to fill - don't worry, I have plenty of my own at this point - and so any deviation in how well you run can cause your results to suffer markedly.

If you are convinced this is not true - that your game is solid and you should be getting better results etc - I would try to shift some of your efforts to properly preparing yourself each and every session. Try getting into a routine, like putting in one hour of hand reviews before every session. If you play in the morning, start showering before you play. If you work out, work out before you play. These types of things can help level off your mental state, and allow you to at least start all your sessions in a similar frame of mind.

GL GL

Would you rather be a poker chip in a big casino with feelings, opinions and the mind of a human or be the 4 of diamonds in a casino poker deck with the same properties as mentioned for the chip?

Originally Posted by Penneywize

sir. I would suggest that the standard deviation of your mental state is quite large

I love this, it's becoming my sig

And why?

That's an easy one, Carroters.

On the surface, the obvious choice would be to select the 4 of diamonds. After all, I could be part of sweet steel wheels; people's fortunes could be crushed by my flush-completing appearance on the turn; and assholes who can't fold AA will lose their stacks to a flopped low set.

But this all ignores a few critical downfalls to living a life as the 4 of diamonds.

Number one, the number of poker tables at a casino are usually dwarfed by those that play blackjack, carribean poker, let it ride, chinese poker, etc. So the chances are good that I'd be some shit card being played by douchebag tourists in a game that sucks fucking balls and is just a fuckin cash cow for the casino.

Second - and this is very important - is that cards have a way shorter life expectancy than chips. I might get used for one or two nights, tops - if that! Then I'd be recycled into a diaper for some chinese baby.

So for these reasons, I'd elect to be a poker chip. Not particularly glamorous, more of a blue-collar existence in the world of gambling. I could intimidate people, if I were of a large denomination, and I could be shuffled incessantly for hours on end, which is probably the equivalent to sex for a poker chip. By that logic, I'd be a pimp.

So, yeah, poker chip 100%.

Edit: Shit didn't realize that you specified the deck of cards would be a poker deck as well. It's a little closer, but I still go with being the poker chip on the grounds of life expectancy and amount of chip sex I'd have. As the 4 of diamonds, I'd be the bitch of literally 9 other cards of my own suit. I could only hope to score with the 3 or deuce of diamonds, who are probably all more impressed by the Jack or the Ace. Fuck those pricks, I'm a poker chip.

Originally Posted by Penneywize

That's an easy one, Carroters.

On the surface, the obvious choice would be to select the 4 of diamonds. After all, I could be part of sweet steel wheels; people's fortunes could be crushed by my flush-completing appearance on the turn; and assholes who can't fold AA will lose their stacks to a flopped low set.

But this all ignores a few critical downfalls to living a life as the 4 of diamonds.

Number one, the number of poker tables at a casino are usually dwarfed by those that play blackjack, carribean poker, let it ride, chinese poker, etc. So the chances are good that I'd be some shit card being played by douchebag tourists in a game that sucks fucking balls and is just a fuckin cash cow for the casino.

Second - and this is very important - is that cards have a way shorter life expectancy than chips. I might get used for one or two nights, tops - if that! Then I'd be recycled into a diaper for some chinese baby.

So for these reasons, I'd elect to be a poker chip. Not particularly glamorous, more of a blue-collar existence in the world of gambling. I could intimidate people, if I were of a large denomination, and I could be shuffled incessantly for hours on end, which is probably the equivalent to sex for a poker chip. By that logic, I'd be a pimp.

So, yeah, poker chip 100%.

Edit: Shit didn't realize that you specified the deck of cards would be a poker deck as well. It's a little closer, but I still go with being the poker chip on the grounds of life expectancy and amount of chip sex I'd have. As the 4 of diamonds, I'd be the bitch of literally 9 other cards of my own suit. I could only hope to score with the 3 or deuce of diamonds, who are probably all more impressed by the Jack or the Ace. Fuck those pricks, I'm a poker chip.

A+ sir, awesome answer!

Who is the coolest?

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Who is the coolest?

I will answer this in the form of a lolcat:

FUCK the 4d! last live session i had, i lost a 3-way all in on a 4d river. I remember it was specifically the 4 of diamonds because it was his only out: a club would've given me a flush, he held one of the other two suits and the other of the other two suits was on the board, and he hit his one trips out...the four of fucking diamonds (his other whole card was a 9, and i also had a 9, so i woulda had a higher two pair if he rivered that).

i mean, other guy had a combo draw, so it was a shrug that i lost the hand, but the fact that THAT dude one it on his one out after a 3b flop was absurd

/csb

Originally Posted by surviva316

FUCK the 4d! last live session i had, i lost a 3-way all in on a 4d river. I remember it was specifically the 4 of diamonds because it was his only out: a club would've given me a flush, he held one of the other two suits and the other of the other two suits was on the board, and he hit his one trips out...the four of fucking diamonds (his other whole card was a 9, and i also had a 9, so i woulda had a higher two pair if he rivered that).

i mean, other guy had a combo draw, so it was a shrug that i lost the hand, but the fact that THAT dude one it on his one out after a 3b flop was absurd

/csb

lol dont you usually make a big stink about correct english and spelling?

did making the video help you and do you think more of the beginners should be doing it. Knowing what you know now what would you be going back and telling yourself to change.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

did making the video help you and do you think more of the beginners should be doing it. Knowing what you know now what would you be going back and telling yourself to change.

Making the vid definitely helped. People posting in the thread really helped me locate some of my worse tendencies and lack of awareness on certain issues. But hey, I was a 2NLer, such things were to be expected.

As for anything I'd tell myself; I'm not sure if there's any one thing I could say that would markedly improve my development at that point in time. Luckily -- probably due to my age / maturity / acceptance of the basic tenets of how to improve at poker -- I had already adopted a proper approach to learning the game. What I needed was time, practice and most importantly, study.

I feel I have balanced these fairly well over the next 6 months I played, but I certainly could have put more time into study (more on the front of concepts - I was always pretty good at going over and analyzing hand histories) and reading books.

So I think I'd probably just tell myself to keep on keeping on, and to develop my confidence in the game - and my confidence in voicing my opinion when other newcomers ask questions about hands / concepts etc.

EDIT: I want to give a shout out to Muzzard, who took time out of his life to review the video in full - was over 30 minutes long - and type out his thoughts to me at length in a private IRC convo. He had no reason whatsoever to do this for me other than wanting to help out a new player. Good on you, sir, hope you read this some time.

Why did you spell Penney with and extra "e" in there?

Originally Posted by Donachello

Why did you spell Penney with and extra "e" in there?

If you ever had a skype convo with me you would know the answer to this question. NO SPOILERS if anyone knows why plz. This is the interwebs!

Originally Posted by Penneywize

If you ever had a skype convo with me you would know the answer to this question. NO SPOILERS if anyone knows why plz. This is the interwebs!

spoiler: its in his avatar........

Two 6's or one 10?

two nickels make a dime every time son

Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

Two 6's or one 10?

This:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

two nickels make a dime every time son

What personal flaw of yours would you say hurts you in poker the worst?

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

What personal flaw of yours would you say hurts you in poker the worst?

No answer yet

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

No answer yet

Your question has me rather pensive, I'll get back to you soon bra.

Originally Posted by Penneywize

Your question has me rather pensive, I'll get back to you soon bra.

I was pretty sure your answer was "being a total faggot" because "it's hard to 16-table with a dick in your mouth all the time."

Btw I'm gay so it's okay if I say faggot.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by Penneywize

Your question has me rather penis-ive, I'll get back to you soon bra.

I was pretty sure your answer was "being a total faggot" because "it's hard to 16-table with a dick in your mouth all the time."

Btw I'm gay so it's okay if I say faggot.

icwutumean

Electric or fuel rc's?

Originally Posted by supahaole

Electric or fuel rc's?

No idea what you're talking about. Do you like men or something?

Glad I could take you back. I actually got nosy about the extra e thing so I googled you. Didn't spend much time on it but one of the first things that came up was for a blog you had on an rc site, so I thought I'd fuck with you. I don't think I've ever had a real rc either, but I remember when the T-Maxx came out and wanted one.

Originally Posted by supahaole

Glad I could take you back. I actually got nosy about the extra e thing so I googled you. Didn't spend much time on it but one of the first things that came up was for a blog you had on an rc site, so I thought I'd fuck with you. I don't think I've ever had a real rc either, but I remember when the T-Maxx came out and wanted one.

This is completely out of context, are you on crack or something?