Multi-way preflop all-in with KK

Do you play this? Let me setup the scenario. UTG raises $1, I reraise to $2, next player goes all-in. Button also calls All-in. Do you call?

I call unless it is 3+ people all in. Then I'd probably fold. It also depends how deep the stacks are and if you're facing a tight table though.

Kings don't get too much weaker even with a lot of callers. If you go all in you're still going to be +EV

yes call everytime, regardless of # of callers.

At 3-4 callers on a normal table, isn't someone bound to have aces? Or should I just push anyway and hope..?

Originally Posted by k8s

At 3-4 callers on a normal table, isn't someone bound to have aces? Or should I just push anyway and hope..?

one in twenty two times on a full table someone's going to have aces

so if you get called by anything else if you push, you're going to be +EV
although in more multi-way pots straights and flushes and the "overace" and small pairs drawing to a set start to make your EV suck if everyone calls without thinking

This ended up being a very odd hand. I called.

Flop: Q 4 6
Turn: J
River: 10

Showdown: Me: KK
First All in guy: AA
Butoon: AK

Lol AK hit runner runner for straight. AK was about a 6% winner in this hand. Damn kings have been killing me latley, 0/5.

Anyways, any specific reasoning as to why KK is still a good call here? I guess playing at $25 NL like I do the other two players could have any random hand as I've seen some really odd all-ins. I think KK would still have about a ~65% equity under random hand assumption. Anyone can find some good info on this?

I had a hand today where I had KK with a very short stack of $2.50 at a NL25 table. I had just lost a big pot the hand before and didn't have time to rebuy. Anyways, after somebody in EP raised it and five people called, I raised all in for 1.50 more and everybody called! The flop was nothing and some guy bet big with a flush draw and folded everybody which was good for me and I ended up taking the pot of ~$16.

I believe that is called "sexing up" in the poker vernacular.

As for the opener in this thread, never fold KK in a position like that. IMO.

Wow, I hate going all in with AK. That guy got friggin lucky, as that straight was about his only hope.

Wow, I hate going all in with AK.

I second that.ESP in a cash game.Tourney oh well.

the reasaon you always call, is because in 100nl the other day, someone raised to 4x, i reraised to 20x, they pushed, with AK at my KK. i'd think you could find a couple people at 25NL who'd push without aces: honestly you have no idea what crap they have. if someone does have aa, suckout, but if nobody does you're missing a triple up.

Originally Posted by Strung

Do you play this? Let me setup the scenario. UTG raises $1, I reraise to $2, next player goes all-in. Button also calls All-in. Do you call?

If the entire table goes AI, I still call.

-'rilla

This is where bankroll management comes into play.
You need to have the bankroll to withstand making All-in calls with positive EV even if you are behind in the hand. If you don't, you don't understand the math or you are playing scared at limits too high for your bankroll.

You may be behind in the hand to AA, but considering the amount in the pot versus the amount it takes to call, you are very +EV.

Originally Posted by Silly String

This is where bankroll management comes into play.
You need to have the bankroll to withstand making All-in calls with positive EV even if you are behind in the hand. If you don't, you don't understand the math or you are playing scared at limits too high for your bankroll.

You may be behind in the hand to AA, but considering the amount in the pot versus the amount it takes to call, you are very +EV.

youre talking about pot odds and he doesnt have them. hes either ahead or drawing slim - hes gotta make the call on whether or not kings are good.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Strung

Do you play this? Let me setup the scenario. UTG raises $1, I reraise to $2, next player goes all-in. Button also calls All-in. Do you call?

If the entire table goes AI, I still call.

-'rilla

With so many callers isn't it terribly likely that someone will hit and beat you? I'll believe you that its +EV but it *seems* like a thin odds situation.

Sorry for not clarifying, but I was speaking to 'rilla's comment about the whole table All-in, not OP.

OP would need to determine if KK is good right now, b/c only 3 people All-in. I would need amounts in their stacks, but I'm guessing he is laid 2:1 or slightly worse to call. He is, IMO, at worst 17% to win the hand. He needs to determine if his read on the 2 All-ins can make up for 15%EV. I guess very likely a fold if you have any inkling one is AA.


And EricE I just realized your the guy I refer to in my signature.

Originally Posted by Silly String

And EricE I just realized your the guy I refer to in my signature.

LOL, exactly.

Few people are insane enough to go AI with something like middle connectors or random crap...so you gotta figure, if there's a lot of folks going AI, they've all got high cards, and if everyone has high cards, it's far less likely they'll hit anything to beat you. For instance, KK vs AK vs AQ vs QJ gives you around 60% to win, hugely EV.

In other words, if I'm holding KK, the more people AI the better - the more likely it is that they've all got a single ace (and are also playing eachothers straight outs)

Just out of interest, what about the guy who had AK? Personally I think AK is a drawing hand without a lot of strength especially against people you know have pocket pairs. I have folded AK preflop in situations like the one described above in the past and have never had a potential straight come up. Especially if you have AK, one guy has AA and the other has KK four of your outs are gone right away. Would you fold AK?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1097247

Code:

pokenum  -h kh kc  - ah ks  - as qd  - qc jc 
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win    lose  %lose    tie  %tie     EV
Kc Kh  677699  62.40  402816  37.09   5493  0.51  0.626
Ks Ah  159149  14.65  909335  83.73  17524  1.61  0.154
As Qd   70438   6.49  991591  91.31  23979  2.21  0.075
Qc Jc  153231  14.11  920829  84.79  11948  1.10  0.146

Yes, I would folk AK to many AIs. It'd only take one person to have any pocket pair to really mess things up for you...and I've noticed at smaller limits, folks tend to really love pocket pairs pre-flop.

Originally Posted by EricE

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Strung

Do you play this? Let me setup the scenario. UTG raises $1, I reraise to $2, next player goes all-in. Button also calls All-in. Do you call?

If the entire table goes AI, I still call.

-'rilla

With so many callers isn't it terribly likely that someone will hit and beat you? I'll believe you that its +EV but it *seems* like a thin odds situation.

At a 9 person table, you'd be given 8:1 odds on your AI. That's good enough to just hit a fucking set and win the damn thing.

I was taking the example to the extreme. Never fold KK preflop. Never decline to go AI with KK preflop. Not until you've put 100,000 hands under your belt, will you be able to even return to this subject and think about maybe folding KK preflop someday.

If I was in the WSOP and 5600 players went AI, I'd still call with KK.

-'rilla

POKERSTARS GAME #2162320123: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/07/22 - 17:41:11 (ET)
Table 'Byblis' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: DF___ ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 2: MIAMI02 ($8.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Faithless1 ($20.15 in chips)
Seat 5: wedgie ($17.40 in chips)
Seat 6: Spaceman1022 ($14.50 in chips)
MIAMI02: posts small blind $0.10
Faithless1: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DF___ [Kh Kd]
wedgie: folds
Spaceman1022: raises $0.75 to $1
DF___: calls $1
MIAMI02: raises $7.50 to $8.50 and is all-in
Faithless1: folds
Spaceman1022: calls $7.50
DF___: raises $7.50 to $16
Spaceman1022: calls $6 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [5c Jd Jc]
*** TURN *** [5c Jd Jc] [5h]
*** RIVER *** [5c Jd Jc 5h] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Spaceman1022: shows [7d 7c] (two pair, Jacks and Sevens)
DF___: shows [Kh Kd] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
DF___ collected $11.40 from side pot
MIAMI02: mucks hand
MIAMI02 leaves the table
DF___ collected $24.50 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $37.75 Main pot $24.50. Side pot $11.40. | Rake $1.85
Board [5c Jd Jc 5h Ad]
Seat 1: DF___ (button) showed [Kh Kd] and won ($35.90) with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 2: MIAMI02 (small blind) mucked [6s Th]
Seat 4: Faithless1 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: wedgie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Spaceman1022 showed [7d 7c] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Sevens



and yes, I know the preflop call was weak, but whatever

the only time i got my KKs cracked by a simple ACe on the board was when I was playing on the final table....3 players left. This guy went all in. I immediately called. The chip leader called.

I had KKs

the first guy AK os

chip leader AQ os

andthe FIRSt card from the flop was ......an ACE

Originally Posted by CrunchyNuts

Yes, I would folk AK to many AIs. It'd only take one person to have any pocket pair to really mess things up for you...and I've noticed at smaller limits, folks tend to really love pocket pairs pre-flop.

yeh.. at micro limits every second player seems to think a low pp is worth going/calling AI preflop.. AK is a coinflip at best, but if someone has KK or AA then your dead.. I'm folding AK to any AI except maybe that of a maniac who has pushed the last 8 hands

Originally Posted by BIGandRICH

Originally Posted by CrunchyNuts

Yes, I would folk AK to many AIs. It'd only take one person to have any pocket pair to really mess things up for you...and I've noticed at smaller limits, folks tend to really love pocket pairs pre-flop.

yeh.. at micro limits every second player seems to think a low pp is worth going/calling AI preflop.. AK is a coinflip at best, but if someone has KK or AA then your dead.. I'm folding AK to any AI except maybe that of a maniac who has pushed the last 8 hands

they also overvalue AQ/AJ so theres a good chance youre way ahead. ive become a lot more aggressive w/ AK preflop and it works well.

Originally Posted by journey075

they also overvalue AQ/AJ so theres a good chance youre way ahead. ive become a lot more aggressive w/ AK preflop and it works well.

Aanything gets pretty badly overvalued, but its often calling AI, and with AQ/AJ they will raise and call a reraise or push, where as they are willing to push hard with any pair. I like the being more agressive with it preflop, i do this aswell now. Usually I get called by hands i'm dominating, AQ, AJ, KQ, or get raised by pairs.