Multi-way pot 2 flush on board vs. TPTK

[LockLow34]

How would you play it?

You're in late position (vital here) with

A K

3 limpers ahead of you (mostly weak players who will chase)

Raise to 4x the bb and all call (blinds fold, so 4 players)

pot has 17 bb

Flop comes A T 6

Question 1:
How much to bet if it's checked to you?

Say you bet and get at least 2 callers and suspect at least 1 is drawing to a flush...

2 things can happen on the turn:

1) the 3rd flush card comes

Question 2:
What do you do if it's checked to you again?

Question 3:
What do you do if you bet out and are check-raised?


2) the flush card doesn't come

Question 4:
How much do you bet?

I won't ask about the river play for now.

[LockLow34]

Here are my thoughts:

How would you play it?

Question 1:
How much to bet if it's checked to you?

I'd underbet the pot by about 1/2 if you think the player will chase you for his whole stack. Basically you don't want to get all-in and lose to a suck-out if the flush comes on the turn.

Say you bet and get at least 2 callers and suspect at least 1 is drawing to a flush...

2 things can happen on the turn:

1) the 3rd flush card comes

Question 2:
What do you do if it's checked to you again?

I'd bet the same amount I bet on the flop. If I get check-raised or flat called, my plan is to check behind on the river.

Question 3:
What do you do if you bet out and are check-raised?

I'd give it up here to a large check-raise. Chances are he's got you beat, if not with the flush then with 2 pair or a set.

2) the flush card doesn't come

Question 4:
How much do you bet?

Here I would slam it home. If he wants to see the last card it's his stack. If he's been slow-playing a set (how likely is that on a 2 flush board in a multi-way pot? you'd most likely get check-raised on the flop) more power to him. Bad players chasing a flush or holding weak aces will almost always call (and lose). Smaller pocket pairs will likely fold.

[JeffreyGB]

How would you play it?

Question 1:
How much to bet if it's checked to you?

I'd bet enough that him calling made bad odds (given that I'm betting again on the turn). I'd also bet enough to build the pot. If I suspect the player will call my all-in with just his flush draw, it's quite possible that I'll push. More likely though, he wouldn't call an all-in. I like a 2/3 to pot-sized bet here, assuming I'll have enough left to make the turn bet not worth calling (I play short stack a lot, so it's possible that that isn't the case).

Say you bet and get at least 2 callers and suspect at least 1 is drawing to a flush...

2 things can happen on the turn:

1) the 3rd flush card comes

Question 2:
What do you do if it's checked to you again?

Depends on my read. If the players are tricky enough that I suspect a check-raise when the fl hits, I'll check. Otherwise I'll bet.

Question 3:
What do you do if you bet out and are check-raised?

Depends on my read and the size of the check-raise. If this guy has previously shown himself to be fond of bluffing, I may call or even rereaise. If not, I let it go.

2) the flush card doesn't come

Question 4:
How much do you bet?

As much as I think they'll call. Depends completely on reads and behaviors. Always at least 1/2 the pot though - I'd rather take it down there than allow someone to draw with reasonable odds.

- Jeffrey

[montimus]

I'm of the aggressive breed that says PUSH ALL IN on that flop. The pot is already big enough to justify taking it down and I don't want to be the one who has to me the decision when that next diamond comes. The decision is easy ON the flop. You know you've likely got the best hand and that's the time to put your money in with a pot that big.

Normally, you want people chasing draws, but chances are you're dealing with more than a frush draw here. Someone likely has an ace and there's a good chance you've got them outkicked. There's also the possibility someone is chasing a straight(either 10 high or A high) and you don't want anyone getting to the turn cheaply or freely.

With pots that size, you want to get all your money in there with the best hand...if I get sucked out by someone willing to risk his entire stack on the draw, then fine

If I'm in that position, I'm making them pay their entire stack(s) to see that next diamond.

[JeffreyGB]

With pots that size, you want to get all your money in there with the best hand...if I get sucked out by someone willing to risk his entire stack on the draw, then fine

If I'm in that position, I'm making them pay their entire stack(s) to see that next diamond.

The problem is that with a large pot, a push is actually callable by the odds. A flush is better than 33% to come by the river. If the pot is 86% or more of the size of the bet you make on the flop AND they are guaranteed not to have to pay more on the turn, then it's a mistake to fold a flush draw here. If someone else makes the mistake of calling before a flush draw, then it doesn't matter how big your bet - even without the pot they are getting better than their odds just calling again yours and the other caller's bet. Bet the flop, but don't bet so much that you can't bet again to take their odds away on the turn.

- Jeffrey

[DoGGz]

This makes no sense. If I'm the favorite I want to push all my chips every single time. Sure, I'm going to lose a pot here and there, but that's poker. Why give him odds to draw you out?

Here are my thoughts:

How would you play it?

Question 1:
How much to bet if it's checked to you?

I'd underbet the pot by about 1/2 if you think the player will chase you for his whole stack. Basically you don't want to get all-in and lose to a suck-out if the flush comes on the turn.

Say you bet and get at least 2 callers and suspect at least 1 is drawing to a flush...

2 things can happen on the turn:

1) the 3rd flush card comes

Question 2:
What do you do if it's checked to you again?

I'd bet the same amount I bet on the flop. If I get check-raised or flat called, my plan is to check behind on the river.

Question 3:
What do you do if you bet out and are check-raised?

I'd give it up here to a large check-raise. Chances are he's got you beat, if not with the flush then with 2 pair or a set.

2) the flush card doesn't come

Question 4:
How much do you bet?

Here I would slam it home. If he wants to see the last card it's his stack. If he's been slow-playing a set (how likely is that on a 2 flush board in a multi-way pot? you'd most likely get check-raised on the flop) more power to him. Bad players chasing a flush or holding weak aces will almost always call (and lose). Smaller pocket pairs will likely fold.

[JeffreyGB]

This makes no sense. If I'm the favorite I want to push all my chips every single time. Sure, I'm going to lose a pot here and there, but that's poker. Why give him odds to draw you out?

Agreed that underbetting to the point of giving good odds isn't the best play.

That said, just shoving everything in on the flop isn't the best either. As I mention above, you end up giving them the odds to draw against you. You'll make money 65% of the time pushing on the flop. It's more profitable (assuming they call) if you wait and push the turn - you win the river over 80% and lose less when the draw comes in on the turn.

- Jeffrey

[montimus]

With pots that size, you want to get all your money in there with the best hand...if I get sucked out by someone willing to risk his entire stack on the draw, then fine

If I'm in that position, I'm making them pay their entire stack(s) to see that next diamond.

The problem is that with a large pot, a push is actually callable by the odds. A flush is better than 33% to come by the river. If the pot is 86% or more of the size of the bet you make on the flop AND they are guaranteed not to have to pay more on the turn, then it's a mistake to fold a flush draw here. If someone else makes the mistake of calling before a flush draw, then it doesn't matter how big your bet - even without the pot they are getting better than their odds just calling again yours and the other caller's bet. Bet the flop, but don't bet so much that you can't bet again to take their odds away on the turn.

- Jeffrey

If you're going to bet enough to give them bad odds to call, as you earlier suggested, you may as well force them to either commit their chips to the draw or fold.

To me it's a matter of getting your chips in when you're sure you've the best hand. The opponent only has really good odds to draw here if he's got a pair in addition to the draw. Regardless of whether the opponent has the odds or not, you're putting him to the test by making him decide if he's gonna play for all his chip on a DRAW. Yeah, he's got a 1 in 3 chance of catching it, but he's going to have to risk all his chips on that chance.

[thestrokes]

Someone likely has an ace and there's a good chance you've got them outkicked.

By my calculations with TPTK you have them outkicked every time unless its a spilt. That said, i dont agree with a push. i think you throw out a pot sized bet, and look for a raise to identify if anyone has you beat right now. You guys are worried so much abut the flush you havent even thought about the fact you only have TPTK. A pot sized bet is enough to kick draws in the ass and look for strength from others. A made hand wont just call here, so if they raise you have to use your reads to see if they got you beat or not.

[Greedo017]

well, while i'm not really too scared on that flop, you still could be beat, and the smart move is still imo to bet a little bit under the pot, say 3/4, and see what your turn card is and how everyone is playing things.

[Fnord]

HOW DEEP IS THE MONEY?!?!?!?

[Cocco_Bill]

Am I missing something here? How is 17bb a big pot with 100bb stacks? Why is there discussion of going all in on the flop with TPTK? It would be a huge mistake calling with a nut flush draw as a lone caller. Only in the unusual situation of 2 or more all ins in front of you can you consider calling, keep in mind that its likely some of your flush outs are countered by a set or 2pair comleting to a full house.

All-in on the flop is a terrible move with TPTK for a 17bb pot with 100bb stacks, only sets or 2 pair will call if they are next to act and thereafter flushdraws will be getting odds to call.

[montimus]

Am I missing something here? How is 17bb a big pot with 100bb stacks? Why is there discussion of going all in on the flop with TPTK? It would be a huge mistake calling with a nut flush draw as a lone caller. Only in the unusual situation of 2 or more all ins in front of you can you consider calling, keep in mind that its likely some of your flush outs are countered by a set or 2pair comleting to a full house.

All-in on the flop is a terrible move with TPTK for a 17bb pot with 100bb stacks, only sets or 2 pair will call if they are next to act and thereafter flushdraws will be getting odds to call.

The point is, if you're not going to play AK aggressively(after a large preflop raise) when A rag rag flops (even with 2 to a flush), why even play it/raise it preflop in the first place? You've caught your hand. The flop is the time to put people to the test.

You've got to assume that with a preflop raise like that, you're dealing with PPs, high cards and decent suited connectors, or Ax. The only two hands I'd be worried about here are trips or A10. Most people I've encountered typically don't check/raise or slowplay two pair, so the main hand you've got to worry about is trip 10s or 6s.

I'm really not worried about the flush draw calling me all-in. Most decent players aren't willing to call their entire stack with only 4 to a flush, and those who make that gamble do tend to leave the table broke at some point or another.

[Cocco_Bill]

Am I missing something here? How is 17bb a big pot with 100bb stacks? Why is there discussion of going all in on the flop with TPTK? It would be a huge mistake calling with a nut flush draw as a lone caller. Only in the unusual situation of 2 or more all ins in front of you can you consider calling, keep in mind that its likely some of your flush outs are countered by a set or 2pair comleting to a full house.

All-in on the flop is a terrible move with TPTK for a 17bb pot with 100bb stacks, only sets or 2 pair will call if they are next to act and thereafter flushdraws will be getting odds to call.

The point is, if you're not going to play AK aggressively(after a large preflop raise) when A rag rag flops with 2 to a flush flops, why even play it/raise it preflop in the first place?

You've got to assume that with a preflop raise like that, you're dealing with PPs, high cards and decent suited connectors, or Ax. The only two hands I'd be worried about here are trips or A10. Most people I've encountered typically don't check/raise or slowplay two pair.

I'm really not worried about the flush draw calling me all-in. Most decent players aren't willing to call their entire stack with only 4 to a flush, and those who make that gamble do tend to leave the table broke at some point or another.

Playing aggressively is one thing, going all in on theflop is entirely other...

With 2 opponents one of them could already have your hand beat.. Its a move I wouldnt even consider here with deep stacks

[Cocco_Bill]

Am I missing something here? How is 17bb a big pot with 100bb stacks? Why is there discussion of going all in on the flop with TPTK? It would be a huge mistake calling with a nut flush draw as a lone caller. Only in the unusual situation of 2 or more all ins in front of you can you consider calling, keep in mind that its likely some of your flush outs are countered by a set or 2pair comleting to a full house.

All-in on the flop is a terrible move with TPTK for a 17bb pot with 100bb stacks, only sets or 2 pair will call if they are next to act and thereafter flushdraws will be getting odds to call.

The point is, if you're not going to play AK aggressively(after a large preflop raise) when A rag rag flops (even with 2 to a flush), why even play it/raise it preflop in the first place? You've caught your hand. The flop is the time to put people to the test.

You've got to assume that with a preflop raise like that, you're dealing with PPs, high cards and decent suited connectors, or Ax. The only two hands I'd be worried about here are trips or A10. Most people I've encountered typically don't check/raise or slowplay two pair, so the main hand you've got to worry about is trip 10s or 6s.

I'm really not worried about the flush draw calling me all-in. Most decent players aren't willing to call their entire stack with only 4 to a flush, and those who make that gamble do tend to leave the table broke at some point or another.

so whats the point of going all in then? Big risk for small reward...

Just to let you know, betting about 2/3 of the pot and getting called by flush draws is a GOOD thing!!

Uh? You are not worried that a flush draw calls an all in? I would be delighted if a flush draw calls, as he would be making a HUGE mistake!

[montimus]

so whats the point of going all in then? Big risk for small reward...

Just to let you know, betting about 2/3 of the pot and getting called by flush draws is a GOOD thing!!

Uh? You are not worried that a flush draw calls an all in? I would be delighted if a flush draw calls, as he would be making a HUGE mistake!

Not really a big risk if you've got a good read on the players. Besides, it's pretty common that TPTK is a hand where you don't win large pots...you're looking to take the pot down right there, or get called with Ax or diamond/diamond...hands where you're a significant favorite to win.

I'm not worried about flush draws calling me all in. They call me all the time and most of the time, they miss.

In my experience, the people who call flop all-ins on 4 to a flush are either A)shortstacked or B)weak players who just want action and want to gamble(after all, poker, regardless of the skill involved, is still gambling). And in either circumstance, I'm going to get that money from them one way or another.

[Fnord]

HOW DEEP IS THE MONEY?!?!?!?

..and I'm going to keep repeating this until you address the most fucking important part of this problem.

[LockLow34]

HOW DEEP IS THE MONEY?!?!?!?

..and I'm going to keep repeating this until you address the most fucking important part of this problem.

LOL

Assume relatively even stacks of ~50bb each.

[Manomanman]

Fnord is absolutely right, so I'm going to move the discussion forward.

1. You are up against 3 short stacks, and they all 3 have 17xBB in their stacks, exactly the amount of the pot.

2. You are up against 2 short stacks (~20xBB) and one tall stack, and you and him each have 100xBB in your stacks.

3. All 4 players at the table have 96xBB in their stack on the flop.

4. All 4 players have 40xBB in stack.

Now, how do you proceed in each situation?

For me, I push in 1, bet 24xBB in 2, and in 3 I bet 17xBB for information. No matter what the case is, I'm betting about the pot, but for different reasons.

Situation 4, by far the most common, is by far the toughest situation. By playing too aggressively, you run the risk of giving the table implied odds on you, making the A or even a K a miracle card for the "smart slowplayer" with, perhaps, a set. However, by playing meekly, you are inviting 3 other players to take a cheap card on you and make 4th street even tougher. If you do get check-raised on the flop after a pot sized bet, you've only got 23xBB left with a 70ishxBB pot, giving you the right price to only chase against weak 2 pair (A 6, not A 10). Ultimately, situation 4 is confusing and is why I don't play NL holdem...it just takes instinct and guts to know what's right in this situation.

[a500lbgorilla]

HOW DEEP IS THE MONEY?!?!?!?

..and I'm going to keep repeating this until you address the most fucking important part of this problem.

LOL

Assume relatively even stacks of ~50bb each.

So, not deep.

-'rilla

[Fnord]

If I have less than about 30bb behind I would just push on the flop, otherwise I would bet out about 15bb.
With stacks of about 50bb I would be willing to bet the farm here in a raised pot. With deeper money than that I would be more willing to get away from my hand.