Moving from 50NL to 100NL

I got a pm, I thought I would answer questions here. I think some people will be interested and if anyone else wants to comment that would be useful for everyone.

Just wanted to ask how it's going at NL100. How has it been so far? How many hands do you have? How's the play compared to NL50?

I only have 3k hands, and it's not going well at all. I was up 3 buy-ins after 2k hands, I've dropped 7 in the last 1k. 2 were terrible tilty calls, the other 5 I feel is mostly "variance" with a little bit of bad play.

100NL is definitely different than 50NL, although I don't think it's harder. 50NL is ...
1) much more passive post-flop, allowing me to play drawing hands
2) much less aggressive pre-flop, so I don't get pushed off of thin raises pre-flop

There are more people who float the flop at 100NL, more turn and river bluffs. 50NL is mostly straightforward play. I don't have the experience yet to tell what's what at 100NL.

Also, what made you decide to move up? Are you glad you did it? What has to happen before you start playing NL100 exclusively?

I decided to move up because I wanted to make more money. I am beating 50NL very soundly and it makes sense that I could make more $/hr at 100NL. My bankroll was right at 2k so I was properly rolled for 100NL. I am glad I tried but since it has started so poorly I need to play more 50NL and build a buffer first.

Before I'll permanently move to 100NL I need more $$. I'll probably build my roll to 2.5k then take another serious shot. I need $$ for RL (real life) so it may not be until the end of the January. If I do decently well any time soon (I played a little 100NL last night, dropped another buy-in with bad luck vs shorties ) then I would easily stay. Even a pittance of 2.5BB/100 would be sufficient for me to get by.

Obviously I'm asking you these things because I'm wondering when I should be moving up and what I should be expecting. I'm not gonna move up anytime soon, but I'm trying to decide what type of goals I should be making for myself.

GL, I'm not sure I can be much help here. I played 100NL a couple times just for fun; I had a great day at 50NL, I wanted to play but all the 50NL tables were crap, etc. I know I'm better than the 50NL players so I know it's time to move on, now I just need the BR.

GL, there is alot of us that need the advice and experience of players moving up recently. I'm not trying to downplay the guys at $200NL, $400NL and up and their advice but poker has changed. There is alot more players, alot more sites, and a wide range of styles depending on where and when you play. It's a new world at $100NL, $50NL and under. We can all use some 2007 experience in these threads. Maybe some changes are afoot.

Again, GL and thanks for the advice.

The biggest change I noticed when I played 100NL was that people used all-in in more intelligent ways. Where I could count on what people had on 50NL, there were more big bet bluffs by aggressive players who sensed you had a medium strength hand, and then pushed you off with an all-in.

I also had more trouble getting business on my top tier hands, like sets and flushes. Basically, the hand reading seems better.

200NL was hyper aggressive, I luckboxed 2 buyins on AA and KK in my first hour then within a week blew them back and moved back down to 100NL and 50NL. Lately I have been playing 25NL mixed with 50NL because I changed from a tag to lag, then I will consider going back to 100NL.

swiggidy

Originally Posted by swiggidy

I know I'm better than the 50NL players so I know it's time to move on, now I just need the BR.

I have the opposite problem. I don't know if I'm better than the 50NL player or the 100NL players or any player ... but I am overrolled for both stakes. This is what is causing most of my problems with the "moving up" issue.

As it is right now there is a big leap from 50--->100 then again from 100-->200. There are several players at FTR that can't move up through these stakes. They are moving up and down and up and down. It would be nice if the players at the higher stakes would help the lower stakes out, but this doesn't always seem to happen. Maybe they can't really help, it is just something that we have to go through to get better. As it stands now I am beating $100 6 max soundly, if I move down to $50 I destroy it, and I really haven't played that much there. When the $200+ players talk about $100 they say that the play is garbage. My advice is to be overrolled before moving up. When you do move up always practice your hand reading even if you aren't in the hand!! The higher level players disguise their hands and misdirect you a lot more than $50 and below.

After reading the excellent LAG v Tag thread at the other site, the winners at the higher stakes 200+ are:
1. Excellent Hand readers.
2. Play looser 25-40 VPIP, 20+ PFR. They can because of #1.
3. They play the player much better.
4. They eat up the fish before the Tags ever get to them.
5. The Tags are afraid of a good Lag, so they avoid getting in big confrontations with them without a big hand. This makes it even easier for the Lag's to identify the Tags hand.

I think this has alot to do with why we are having problems moving up. At the lower stakes there are plenty of fish, and they are easy to identify. As you move up there are less fish, but there are more good Lags. If you just looked at their stats, they wll be very close to the fish you have always known and loved. The tables have similar stats(Flop%, Avg. Pot) so you assume they are similarly played, but they are not. Without the proper postflop skills it is impossible to move up.

why do i think 100nl is still as easy as ever and 200nl is still full of those players who can actually play a little post-flop in addition to nut camping...?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

why do i think 100nl is still as easy as ever and 200nl is still full of those players who can actually play a little post-flop in addition to nut camping...?

Why are you the way that you are?...I hate... so much about the things that you choose to be.

very helpful post miffed

Originally Posted by courtiebee

I have the opposite problem. I don't know if I'm better than the 50NL player or the 100NL players or any player ...

did you play much at 25NL? Or is the stake too small for you to care about the play? There is a level where you know you are "too good for" (for lack of a better term).

How many hands have you played at 50NL? It took me awhile (5k hands?) to start feeling comfortable.

You are successful at MTTs, correct? This ability has to translate somehow. drmcboy mentioned that he feels a successful 50NL player is better than 90% of MTT players. Are you starting to feel this is true?

Maybe I'm being cocky but I totally agree with Miffed. It's all the same shit. I'm kind of caught between 100NL and 200NL right now, bankroll-wise, and even then I don't see much difference. When people reraise you at 200NL preflop it's sometimes AK now too. 100NL plays a lot like 25NL players, just now there's a few more that won't stack off with just top pair, mind you, those chumps are still fairly plentiful...

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Maybe I'm being cocky but I totally agree with Miffed. It's all the same shit. I'm kind of caught between 100NL and 200NL right now, bankroll-wise, and even then I don't see much difference. When people reraise you at 200NL preflop it's sometimes AK now too. 100NL plays a lot like 25NL players, just now there's a few more that won't stack off with just top pair, mind you, those chumps are still fairly plentiful...

this has been my experience with 100nl also. i really don't see a huge difference from 25nl. it's a bit more aggressive, and not as many tptk's being felted.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Maybe I'm being cocky but I totally agree with Miffed. It's all the same shit. I'm kind of caught between 100NL and 200NL right now, bankroll-wise, and even then I don't see much difference. When people reraise you at 200NL preflop it's sometimes AK now too. 100NL plays a lot like 25NL players, just now there's a few more that won't stack off with just top pair, mind you, those chumps are still fairly plentiful...

this has been my experience with 100nl also. i really don't see a huge difference from 25nl. it's a bit more aggressive, and not as many tptk's being felted.

agreed.
200nl i only really about the odd player reraising you without the goods at times, aggressive draw play and people floating really obvious c-bets when stats suggest so.
100nl is pretty much the same as 25nl except tp doesnt stack off ahead unless you are playing with teh table fish and scs have much better implied odds against marginally winning abc tags with little postflop skill beyond set farming.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

200nl i only really about the odd player reraising you without the goods at times, aggressive draw play and people floating really obvious c-bets when stats suggest so.
100nl is pretty much the same as 25nl except tp doesnt stack off ahead unless you are playing with teh table fish and scs have much better implied odds against marginally winning abc tags with little postflop skill beyond set farming.

This is not the case currently at Stars. At $100nl, there are several who will float cbets, reraise with trash, bet draws aggro, steal like its going out of style etc. There is not alot of this going on at $50nl at Stars, it is still fairly straight forward poker at this level. I think that at $200nl+ is where the fish start to thin out and most players, not just some, have real strong postflop skills.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

did you play much at 25NL? Or is the stake too small for you to care about the play? There is a level where you know you are "too good for" (for lack of a better term).

Yeah you're right on in saying that the stake is too small for me to care about. It's bad, but I can't take it seriously because I have over 180 buyins and I just don't care if I win or lose $25. That's why I pretty much went straight to $50NL when I started playing 6 max cash.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

How many hands have you played at 50NL? It took me awhile (5k hands?) to start feeling comfortable.

I'm fairly comfortable. I only have 6k hands or so though, so I'm thinking I should probably play several thousand more before I move up. I'm just confused as to how I'm supposed to know if I'm ready to move up even if I've played a certain number of hands and/or won a certain amount of money.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

You are successful at MTTs, correct? This ability has to translate somehow. drmcboy mentioned that he feels a successful 50NL player is better than 90% of MTT players. Are you starting to feel this is true?

I remember drmcboy saying this in the MTT forum. I don't know if I've seen this directly translating other than the fact that winning tourneys obviously means I know how to play poker to some degree. To what degree though ... lol ...

Anyway, thanks again for this thread. I'll figure it out one day Right now I'm back to playing MTTs and hoping I win one so that I don't have to worry about cash games anymore

If you're "fairly comfortable" and over rolled then move to 100NL. A very small BB/100 is enough to get by.

Good luck in your MTTs

You don't say what your results are like at 50NL, Courtie - I know it's a small sample but you presumably have an idea of how you're getting on?

Originally Posted by biondino

You don't say what your results are like at 50NL, Courtie - I know it's a small sample but you presumably have an idea of how you're getting on?

If you're talking about profits or stats, they change every single time I play That's why I know my sample is way too small ...

As it stands, I haven't played since around Christmas and I'm at an impressive 3bb/100 (for a huge profit of 3 buyins, whee). I ran really badly the last time I played and dropped 5 buyins in like 550 hands. Because of that and the small sample size, I can't really look into any of this too much. Just wanted to know swiggidy's thoughts and what I should be looking for and thinking about once I start playing again (hence this thread).

Keep in mind I am focusing on 6max at the moment, so my comment are geared towards it, but I think the play at SOME 25NL and 50NL is pretty much the same at 100NL, depending on opponents at the table. Although, at 100NL you can gear your play knowing your opponents can actually fold warm hands.

Hey guys,

I just wanted to say that I entirely agree with most of what swiggidy said in his original post.

I play on interpoker (and i'm pretty sure there are very few ppl on this site that play there.. if any?? I haven't seen many, thats for sure)

I owned 25NL and 50NL pretty good, but I've now logged about 20k hands at 100NL and I can't seem to beat this level at all. Down a few buy-ins over that stretch (thank god for rakeback!)

You can tell the play is different just by browsing the tables on the main screen. All the $50Nl have about 50-60% seeing the flop, while most of the $100NL tables have about 25-40% seeing the flop, which is a pretty big difference.

-There are far less limp callers at 100NL than at 50NL
-Definitely more players floating at 100NL
-At 50NL i found that if a player raised, and I 3-bet them preflop, they would call almost all the time and fold to my cont bet. At 100NL, players are raising and folding to the 3-bets preflop a lot more often. This can make a pretty big difference to your win rate, if you're not getting action on your big hands
-a LOT less players stacking off on TPTK

These are just some of the things i've noticed. I am definitely not speaking for all sites, but interpoker is apparently one of the tighter/stronger sites (FullTilt'ish) , so this may not all hold for the sites with more fish.

Does anyone play on interpoker here? (or I guess.. any other crypto site?)

I do - I play $50 and £50NL 6max. I have played some hands at $100 but it's still outside my comfort zone. I agree on balance that it is a definite step up, but I don't really have enough hands to state this with any confidence.

However - I can pretty much say with certainty that $50NL does NOT have 50-60% seeing the flop[ the majority of the time. Certainly the loosest two or three tables will, but that leaves a good 8-20 tables where it's between 25-50 (I am assuming you're talking about 6max here). I'd say this sta is actually fairly similar at both limits, in my experience.

Dude - if you're getting rb at Interpoker, why not sign up for Sun and Pokerplex as well and take advantage of their reload bonuses as well as rb? That'll make you an extra 3 buyins per month!

I have an announcement to make:

I finally tried 100NL lastnight! Negative 5 buy-ins, but I took a lot of positive from it.

25NL 8 mths
50NL 4 mths

The main positive I gained is confidence. I understand that I failed @ 50NL 3 or 4 times before I never looked back to 25NL. Last night was only my first of what I believe will be difficult sessions. The knowledge gained through loosing poker is much more valuable in the long-term than $300 - $500 @ lower stakes. I've dedicated the rest of January (or however long it takes) towards making this transition. I don't mind loosing the first few attempts and maybe a couple grand along the way, because it will be worth it in the long run. If I want to give up, I can always continue to rape 50NL.

I found the most difficult part was trying to play my same game. Because there is twice as much at risk, I found myself playing a little bit differently. ie. floating when I shouldn't be, calling raises when I normally wouldn't, betting with the worst of it. I think that for the most part, 100nl is very similar to 50nl, if not the same. The only difference is that the players are a weeee bit better overall.

To courtiebee: If I had my choice, I would play against 12 year olds with huge bankrolls. Unfortunatly, we can't. Forget about your bankroll size for a moment, because it doesn't matter if you have more than 10-15 buy-ins. Play @ 100NL for a little bit, expect to loose. Then expect to break-even. Then expect to be a winning player. Next to the dicipline in poker, the transitions IMO are the most difficult part of the game, but it will be worth it in the long run.

I'll keep this thread updated on my progress (if anyone cares to read about it). Great thread btw, nice timing too!