Move Up?

I have been making money consistently at $10 NL on Ultimate Bet for 5 weeks. Now I am in the same position as I was a week ago; I have enough br to move up to $25 NL. A week ago, I played 3 sessions at $25 NL, winning $5 over the first two and busting out on the third, leaving me with too few dollars of br to keep playing $25 NL. So now that I have made that money back at $10 NL, should I attempt to play at $25 NL again?

so you have at least 500 dollars right?


if so, than its a mistake not to move up.

Move your roll to party though so you can take down their 300$ worth of bonuses. I'd wager that the 25nl game on party is softer than the 10nl game on ultimatebet.

If you have beaten 10nl over a decent sample, well actually, any sample, and have a $500 BR, then yes, play 25nl. If you havent even dropped 1 buyin then stick with it, youll make it back. I had a similar problem at 50nl, I hit a huge downswing when I moved up and instead of sticking it out at 50nl I moved down everytime I dropped 2 buyins and rebuilt at 25nl. This is too risk adverse and Ill be sure not to be that quick to move back down. If you think you are getting outplayed, move down, if not just stick with it for a few thousand hands and see how it goes.

I have $250, enough to buy-in to a $25 table once a day based on not risking more than 10% of your br in one day.

You should have 20 to 25 buyins to the cash game, so $500 for your cash.

10 buyin downswings happen

you need 20 buyins

Originally Posted by andy609

I have $250, enough to buy-in to a $25 table once a day based on not risking more than 10% of your br in one day.

Day 1 you bust out. BR sits at $225.

Day 2 buyin at $22.50? (10%)

Lose 1/2 stack. BR sits at $213.75

Day 3 buyin at $21.38??

I'd say you need a bigger bankroll.

If jackvance weren't wrapped up in exams he'd say more power to ya!

How many hands did you play over 5 weeks at $10nl and what was your starting BR?

DON'T MOVE UP YET

Originally Posted by geoffm33

Originally Posted by andy609

I have $250, enough to buy-in to a $25 table once a day based on not risking more than 10% of your br in one day.

Day 1 you bust out. BR sits at $225.

Day 2 buyin at $22.50? (10%)

Lose 1/2 stack. BR sits at $213.75

Day 3 buyin at $21.38??

I'd say you need a bigger bankroll.

If jackvance weren't wrapped up in exams he'd say more power to ya!

After Day 1, I go back to $10 NL.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

How many hands did you play over 5 weeks at $10nl and what was your starting BR?

1700 hands. Started at $155.[/quote]

Originally Posted by andy-akb

How many hands did you play over 5 weeks at $10nl and what was your starting BR?

1700 hands. Started at $155.[/quote][/quote]
You must be 1tabling a few hours a week, correct? Start adding a few more tables at $10nl so you can play more hands in the short amount of time you are able to play, that will make the move up much quicker, but definitely dont move up yet.

Originally Posted by andy609

1700 hands.

oh what its like to be new

stick it out at 10 nl for a while longer. If 500 seems like way too far away, at least wait until 350, that way you can lose a couple buy-ins before dropping back to 10nl. playing 25nl only able to lose 1 buy-in will probably just end up frustrating. if you're beating 10nl pretty ok it shouldn't take that long to make the extra 100. maybe try adding another table.

I've been playing two tables for the past week. What are the exact bankroll requirements for multi-tabling, or maybe more to the point, what's the most tables I can play right now?

number of tables is irrelevant

To play full ring NLHE you need 20 buyins and to play shorthanded ring NLHE you probably need more (closer to 30 prob).

I voted yes but it was before I read your BR. Dont move up with only 10 buyins.

Originally Posted by andy609

After Day 1, I go back to $10 NL.

I guess if you are dabling in $25NL then thats fine. I would consider it moving up though unless you have the BR.

You can move up with 15 buyins I think, and don't just move down immediately if you lose one buyin - maybe aftre three or four. This is all assuming you are a long term winning player at $10NL, and I think you probably need to spend a bit more time confirm9ing this (as well as earning $125 more).

Originally Posted by andy609

I've been playing two tables for the past week. What are the exact bankroll requirements for multi-tabling, or maybe more to the point, what's the most tables I can play right now?

As long as you can handle the added tables then add them, multitabling doesnt increase variance. If you really want to move up in a reasonable time, I think you should try to find a little more time to play. Playing 2 tables gives you about 120 hands/hour [fullring], so you are probably playing under 5 hours a week. If thats all you have time for, then so be it, its just going to take a lot longer to move up. Adding more tables definitely will help, Id slowly start working towards 4 and stick with that until you get to $25nl.

Originally Posted by geoffm33

If jackvance weren't wrapped up in exams he'd say more power to ya!

I'd say.. 10 is enough if you know you can beat that stake. Which doesn't seem to be the case here..

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by geoffm33

If jackvance weren't wrapped up in exams he'd say more power to ya!

I'd say.. 10 is enough if you know you can beat that stake. Which doesn't seem to be the case here..

YOU are the MAN!!!!!

You're weird flomo.

Btw that "10 is enough" thing, for me personally, only applies to 10NL atm..

oh m geee.


anyways, so i'm a super newb to online poker...and i have a couple quick questions to add to this wonderful thread. 1.) so how do you know when you've mastered a certain stake such as $10nl. Are you just consistantly winning hands and outplaying your opponents? Does that necessarily mean that players within the stake are at the same skill level?

2.) what does "grinding" consist of. i've lost my 3rd buyin at 25nl (which i just discovered was way too high for me to be grinding). I tried to "grind" it out, in that i was up 100 or so bucks before i just slowly started flopping and flopping till i busted out. does grinding necessarily mean, make 5 bucks and then quit for the day and then move on to tomorrow? or what. thanks.


If someone can direct me to a great thread that covers these issues, or just reiterate some of this shit for me, that would be great. thanks in advance

Originally Posted by T_Khan

so how do you know when you've mastered a certain stake such as $10nl. Are you just consistantly winning hands and outplaying your opponents? Does that necessarily mean that players within the stake are at the same skill level?

It isnt just winning consistently. Its winning consistently and knowing why. Its being comfortable with the players and knowing what their bets mean, and not really worrying when that third flush card comes because either you *know* they have it and fold or you *know* they dont and you call.
There will always be players better than you at any stakes but when you have mastered a certain game you will know who those players are and you will know how to avoid them taking too much off you.

Originally Posted by T_Khan

2.) what does "grinding" consist of. i've lost my 3rd buyin at 25nl (which i just discovered was way too high for me to be grinding). I tried to "grind" it out, in that i was up 100 or so bucks before i just slowly started flopping and flopping till i busted out. does grinding necessarily mean, make 5 bucks and then quit for the day and then move on to tomorrow? or what. thanks.

Grinding just means knowing your game, playing it and sticking to it even if the beats are comming in (or if they arent). Once you are comfortable at a certain stake it wont matter if you lose a couple of buyins through correct play and you will be able to carry on without tilting because you know the money will eventually come in.

Thanks I appreciate it.

The thing i found though, is that in a lot of the low-stake .5/.10 or .10/.25 nl tables (esp at pp) there is a LOT of eratic play so many times it's a bit hard to read kids. Sometimes a guy will bet strongly on Ace high...and WIN against a bunch of other donkeys...but then for example (which is what happened to me) i'd have trip 10s with an 8 kicker...and the @#%*er pushes ( i call) and then he has a 9 kicker. those are the same type of beats i've been getting alllllll month.

Dude, everyone who plays the low stakes has to deal with the same thing. You've got to think of it this way - if 7 out of ten times they have squat and you have trips, and 3 out of ten times they have a hand that beats you, then you're going to win 70% of the time!

Ring poker is NEVER about 1 hand, ever. It's never about 100 hands, or even 1,000. Once you get to 10,000 you should have a rough idea of your skills and leaks, but even then it won't be a full awareness. I've played 60,000 or so hands at full ring and I am only dimly aware of how well my game is developed, what I can do to improve, and how to read the betting patterns of others.

Andy, let me add my $.02. I started at 10PL and then moved to 25PL. In March of this year, I moved to 25NL. Did well (10PTBB/100) over about 6,000 hands. Then jumped to 50NL in April with a $750 BR. I had my head handed to me ... 3 buyins gone in 2 sessions. I know what I did wrong but ...

I went back to 25NL and have been there since. Now I'm still at 10+PTBB/100 over 21,000 hands. Thing is for me, I am enjoying the game, winning a few bucks (actually I cash out my car payment each month), and am able to try some of the ideas presented here. I may try 50NL again but for now, current stakes (25NL) is just fine.

As suggested, try multi-tabling. Going from 1 to 2 helps a lot. Just recently I became comfortable with 3 using a HUD.

Originally Posted by T_Khan

those are the same type of beats i've been getting alllllll month.

That is weird, that never happens to me. I always have the best hand when it comes to showdown. If I have A high and push, I get called by a K high, never a better hand. If I have trips, I always have the highest kicker. People never hit their sets or flush draws on my TPTK either!

Ok, the irony should be clear. In the long run, you'll hit the nuts on others as often as others hit the nuts on you. You'll hit your sets on their AA or TPTK as often as people hit their sets on your AA/TPTK. You'll hit your flush draws as often as other people hit theirs. In the long run this is a trivial truth. Your edge comes from getting paid more on your winners, and paying others less on their winners. Then, in the long run, you end up winning money.

appreciated.

I think you are better off being patient and crushing (7+ BB/100) the level you are playing for at least 20k hands before moving up. Also, the next "level" you should add to your game before moving up is additional tables. I went from 1, to 2, to 3 and then 4 tables in $25nl. Once I felt comfortable with 4 tables (meaning my win rate was virtually the same as when playing less tables), I moved up to $50nl and went back down to 2 tables. I lost 2 buy-ins quickly but it was not because of being outplayed so I stuck with it. 5k hands later, I am running 9BB/100, playing 4 tables and am feeling confident about my game again.

What's the hurry to move up? I think I may permanently camp at $50nl...I have little desire to be playing for $100 stacks. It's just fun for me so I don't want to make it too stressful.

Heh, 7+BB/100 is crushing? I have 15k 10NL hands in my database at over 30BB/100.. what is that then? :P

Originally Posted by jackvance

Heh, 7+BB/100 is crushing? I have 15k 10NL hands in my database at over 30BB/100.. what is that then? :P

30+ = Donk.

Heh, no argument there.. but seriously, do I have warped standards, cuz I find 7BB/100 to be running really dry. Dunno.

And I know I shouldn't be playing b/c I'm in my exams.. but today I just couldn't restrain myself, so I put in a few hours..

if you can win 7-8ptbb/100 over a very large sample then you are a shark at the stakes you play

Those bankroll rules are a little ridiculous IMO. 10 buyins is plenty if poker is not your sole source of income. It's not like if you bust out you would never be able to buyin again.

If you feel fairly confident I'd give it a shot.

If your current bankroll is extremely precious to you and you want to make sure you never have to deposit again, stay where you are until you hit $500.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Heh, no argument there.. but seriously, do I have warped standards, cuz I find 7BB/100 to be running really dry. Dunno.

And I know I shouldn't be playing b/c I'm in my exams.. but today I just couldn't restrain myself, so I put in a few hours..

Then stop wasting time at those stakes...

Don't cash out, if you need the $ then go mug an old lady or something...anything is better than cashing out!

Or better yet, get someone to stake you.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Heh, no argument there.. but seriously, do I have warped standards, cuz I find 7BB/100 to be running really dry. Dunno.

And I know I shouldn't be playing b/c I'm in my exams.. but today I just couldn't restrain myself, so I put in a few hours..

Stop posting your <1k sessions of 30ptbb/100 in everythread you have a chance. This isnt even a slant brag, its just a straight up brag. At $10nl it is very possible to sustain 10+ptbb/100 but somebody running at 7ptbb/100 is not "running dry" and thats a respectable winrate. If you could maintain a 30ptbb/100 at .10/.20 you would have moved up long ago.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Stop posting your <1k sessions of 30ptbb/100 in everythread you have a chance.

Yeah, you're right, I'm sorry. This doesn't prove anything. Hadn't played in a while, seeing nothing but books, got a bit happy that it went well etc. Wish I could delete the post but it has been quoted now.

And yeah, no more cashing out.. if I'm really running at a high average at these lowish stakes, I should get to a stake I belong quickly. If I have been deluding myself, I'll crash and burn.

EDIT: Ok I took down the stupid picture. No more meaningless graphs.. less than 10k means squat anyway. I'm still such a noob..

you need to be playing higher stakes jack

youre wasting your time with 10nl

stop screwing around with puny 10nl winnings and build a bankroll

thats all

Originally Posted by flomo

DON'T MOVE UP YET

Originally Posted by Renton

you need to be playing higher stakes jack

youre wasting your time with 10nl

stop screwing around with puny 10nl winnings and build a bankroll

thats all

Heh, well, to speed things up I went to 20NL yesterday on 8 buyins. Now just played an hour after my last post, made $90 there. This is such a strain on my ability to stay calm.. and if I let it get to me, my game goes to hell. This might seem like a hidden brag or a luxury problem, but it's a real problem for me . Because if you play on a "high" it's soooo easy to blow all your winnings again in record speed.. especially if you want to go play higher stakes..

And the reason I started playing yesterday was b/c I wanted to make $200 for another external HD for my media collection.. and now I have reached that goal already.. but yeah, I'm not gonna cash it out.. gonna stick with it and build a roll for 50NL now. Trying to do the right thing for a change

When I started I made a promise to myself never to cash out a dime until I hit 10k for my bankroll.

It did wonders for my bankroll management and discipline.

Maybe I really should take up that pending offer from this guy that wants to stake me for a couple grand. But I just don't wanna split the winnings lol, so I'll try to do it on my own.

I'm in no dire need of money in real life atm, so I'm gonna follow your advice. Thx man. No more cashing out til I am rolled for a decent stake!

you don't need a couple grand

you just need 500. You should beat 25nl for 15k hands or so before you even think about playing 100nl (which is what you'd eventually need 2 grand for).

Here's another perspective:

I have a BR over $600.00 and still play 10NL ! I no longer pay attention to the formulas.

here's why :

1. The reason I have my BR is because of SitnGos - so I can't forget that. If someone can afford to deposit $500.00 I think it's absurd that they play 25NL.
2. When I get stacked at $10 NL - it doesn't affect me - I can reload and get on with the game. At higher stakes - I realize that getting stacked is very traumatic for me - and it negatively affects my game. It took me a long time to figure this out. Some people may have more tolerance for this - I don't.
3. Sometimes when I get stacked - it's because I make a dumb mistake - I really think I should be making few mistakes at a particular level before moving up. It's cheaper that way.
4. When I chart my results there is way too much variance - I have no formula, but I want to see a nice consistently rising graph.

These are my personal criteria - I'm sure it's different for alot of people. My progress may be slower than some - but I know that I'm improving and I'm slowly building a BR.

Martin

Originally Posted by jackvance

Heh, 7+BB/100 is crushing? I have 15k 10NL hands in my database at over 30BB/100.. what is that then? :P

Do you filter only your winning hands into your database

JK man....

BTW--just hit 10K hands at $10NL and was just over 10ptbb/100. Could have been even higher without a couple of idiotic calls along the way. I didn't feel like a shark, but I could tell I am at least a little bit better than the average $10NL player...

what do you guys mean by cash out because i try to make sure that i don't have to much money in my party account but keep track of how much money my BR is, and I don't use netteller

I think that you should move up when you feel comfortable to do so, right now im playing 50nl with 60 buyins but I want to get to 5k$ and have a 40K sample size before I move up

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

Could have been even higher without a couple of idiotic calls along the way.

I wish it were only a "couple" of idiotic calls for me.

Originally Posted by Renton

if you can win 7-8ptbb/100 over a very large sample then you are a shark at the stakes you play

What about 5.8 over a smallish sample size (2000 hands)?

sample too small to tell

if you are running good, you can make over 20 ptbb/100 over a sample that small, and if you're running bad you can lose 10 ptbb/100.