More fish in Limit vs No Limit

I've never played Limit, gonna get a book soon on how to play but from what I know of it it seems that there would be more in limit simply because people call down so often it would be profitable for those who know pot odds.

Anyone have any experience with this?

I pretty much never play limit, however, my initial thought is that it's not as easy to exploit pot odds as you might think simply BECAUSE the limit hinders your ability to punish people who chase. Often in limit, it IS correct to chase. That's the beauty of no limit because you set the price and punish the players who don't know any better. People have postulated that a well written computer could beat the best limit players, but few people think a computer could ever beat the best no limit players. So, I'd have to disagree with your assessment, but don't let that discourage you. Limit can definitely be a profitable game if you know what you're doing and play against others who don't

The thing that intrigues me about limit is how you can play for more money with less.

My friend is a live player but he wouuld play $4/$8 with only $150 and walk out with 3x that. I don't think he played enough for the variance to hit but still it's nice to know.

Originally Posted by Jason

I pretty much never play limit, however, my initial thought is that it's not as easy to exploit pot odds as you might think simply BECAUSE the limit hinders your ability to punish people who chase. Often in limit, it IS correct to chase. That's the beauty of no limit because you set the price and punish the players who don't know any better. People have postulated that a well written computer could beat the best limit players, but few people think a computer could ever beat the best no limit players. So, I'd have to disagree with your assessment, but don't let that discourage you. Limit can definitely be a profitable game if you know what you're doing and play against others who don't

I doubt a computer could beat the best limit players, because the best limit players are really aggressive and when you get several at a table, they can really increase the price of poker in the same way that a tight-aggressive no limit player can. A computer can probably beat average limit players though.

As for limit players chasing draws, yes, it is often the correct play to chase draws in limit. Nonetheless, "often" is not always, so one leak in a lot of limit players' game is chasing too many draws.

Another, bigger leak, however, is where I make much of my money. Lots of limit players, even more so than no limit players, don't process information and don't generate good reads. As a result, they not only end up chasing in situations where they don't have good pot odds, but they end up chasing in situations where they are drawing dead or near dead. And you can just bleed them dry when you have good cards.

Finally, one thing I get a little ticked off at, playing a lot of limit, is the oft-made statement that limit is a pot odds game and no limit is an implied odds game. In fact, both types of odds can matter in both games, though obviously implied odds are relatively more important in no limit.

But when you decide to raise, call, or fold on the flop in limit, for instance, you need to be taking into account not only what is in the pot at this time but what is likely to occur in later streets. And with the bets doubled on the turn and the river, that can mean that the implied odds of your play are quite a bit different than the pot odds.

The bottom line on limit and no limit is that either game is beatable if you develop your reads and understand how to maximize the expected value of your plays. And if you get up to a high enough level, you can find tables filled with sharks who are very hard to beat in either game.

Personally, I shifted over to limit mainly because of the structure of no limit games in my local casinos, which did not allow players to buy in with deep enough stacks and therefore made it hard to generate sufficient profit when a good betting situation arose. $40 NL with $1/$2 blinds, or $80 or $100 NL with $2/$3 or $2/$4 blinds, is basically lottery ticket poker-- wait for a good hand, get all your chips in, and hope it holds up against 3 callers. Lots of variance and I couldn't use my skills as a poker player. The only NL game I really liked is a $100 buy-in $1/$2 game that one place offers, but even there, I'd rather be playing that game with a $200 buy-in. The casinos are more interested in making poker cheap than creating a good playable game.

Limit has plenty of variance too, of course-- it is famous for variance! But playing limit at a high level requires great skill, especially with respect to your reads. And there are certainly plenty of fish on the local tables, at least until you get up to about $20/$40 limit.

It makes you wonder than if it's better to play at lower limits with more fish or higher limits with more sharks. I'm not sure which would be more profitable.

True you can play for more meaningful stakes in FL than in NL, but you're win rates for FL will be dramatically lower. 10bb/100 is considered fantastic at NL, where at FL is it basically unsustainable. A respectable win rate at FL is anything above 0bb/100. Killing the game would pretty much be anything over 2-3bb/100 over a large sample of hands. And of course with FL at lower stakes, you not only have to beat your opponents, but you'll have to beat the rake too.

I play both, and enjoy both games equally. In my experience, there are more fish at FL because it costs less for them to chase. In turn, you will get sucked out on a lot more. The variance at anything under $.50BB can be truly sickening due to the extremely loose-passive play. It gets a tad better as you move up, but obviously the players get a little better and a bit more aggressive.

Originally Posted by Airles™

True you can play for more meaningful stakes in FL than in NL, but you're win rates for FL will be dramatically lower. 10bb/100 is considered fantastic at NL, where at FL is it basically unsustainable. A respectable win rate at FL is anything above 0bb/100. Killing the game would pretty much be anything over 2-3bb/100 over a large sample of hands.

I play both, and enjoy both games equally. In my experience, there are more fish at FL because it costs less for them to chase. In turn, you will get sucked out on a lot more. The variance at anything under $.50BB can be truly sickening due to the extremely loose-passive play. It gets a tad better as you move up, but obviously the players get a little better and a bit more aggressive.

You need to come to a casino. Seriously. At Commerce, you can get all the way up to $9/$18 limit and find lots of loose-passives and loose-aggressives. Just about anywhere, you can get up to $4/$8 and find plenty of them. Much better than playing $0.25/$0.50 on the internet.

Yes, there's plenty of variance, but it's a very beatable game.

Yeah, live there are way more bad players, because they don't have to register on a site to play, just throw cash on a table.

But also you need a HUGE BR to get better. BR requirements don't change. Just doing $1/$2 NL you need around $5k. Online it's the same players and you can get better without risking as much. That being said, if I had $5k I'd be doing casinos/card rooms.

Yes I do. Well timed aggressiveness and a mathematically sound game will get you all the way up to $3/6 online.

I've never played FL at a casino. Only $1/2 or $1/3 NLH. I live about 45 minutes from Detroit, but I'm not sure if they spread any limit games. It's something I plan to check out when I go to Vegas this fall.

Airles are you a Michigander?

Ohio, but close. I live about 5 miles from Toledo.

Originally Posted by Airles™

Yes I do. Well timed aggressiveness and a mathematically sound game will get you all the way up to $3/6 online.

I've never played FL at a casino. Only $1/2 or $1/3 NLH. I live about 45 minutes from Detroit, but I'm not sure if they spread any limit games. It's something I plan to check out when I go to Vegas this fall.

'

According to another website that I have found reliable with respect to this sort of information, Greektown and Soaring Eagle casinos in Michigan feature 3/6 limit hold 'em, and Motor City features 5/10 and 10/20 limit. If you could get out to Motor City, I'd check out the 5/10 if I were you. It's the lowest limit they offer, so I bet it's a fish tank.

Yeah, I'm about 40 minutes from Toledo. I haven't gone to a Detroit casino yet as I just turned 21 last year but I'll be going for some tourneys this summer.

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

Yeah, I'm about 40 minutes from Toledo.

Where at? I'm always lookin for new people to join the home game and I'm always up for a trip to a card room. Only problem is I only have work privileges on my DL right now so I always need a ride.

Originally Posted by LawDude

Originally Posted by Airles™

Yes I do. Well timed aggressiveness and a mathematically sound game will get you all the way up to $3/6 online.

I've never played FL at a casino. Only $1/2 or $1/3 NLH. I live about 45 minutes from Detroit, but I'm not sure if they spread any limit games. It's something I plan to check out when I go to Vegas this fall.

'

According to another website that I have found reliable with respect to this sort of information, Greektown and Soaring Eagle casinos in Michigan feature 3/6 limit hold 'em, and Motor City features 5/10 and 10/20 limit. If you could get out to Motor City, I'd check out the 5/10 if I were you. It's the lowest limit they offer, so I bet it's a fish tank.

Sweet. Guess I just never noticed it before since I go straight to the desk and ask for the next seat $1/2 NLH.

what were the restrictions for?

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

what were the restrictions for?

Traffic incident, no insurance.

I think it would be cool if people on the forum got together to go to a casino or poker room. I'll make a post in the live forum to see what region everyone is from.

I personally dont play it much, but it can be profitable, personally with the amount of low to mid no limit action online, I pretty much just avoid itl. Live it can be fun, it becomes a lot of no-fold em hold em, but if your just a little bit pickier then the average player, a little bit smarter on your calls and draw then average you will make some money. If your running well you can make a lot in a little while.