Minimum stakes worth playing - 25NL?

Do you think 25NL is the minimum limit for serious roll building?

I am thinking about depositing $750 to play 25NL.

My plain is to have 30 buyins to move up, if I lose 8 buy ins at new limit move back down to grind it back up. 6 tables max when moving up, 9 tables max when grinding.

How difficult are the games at 25NL?

I'd recommend starting lower to be honest. The games at 25NL aren't too bad, but to beat it you defo need to have a solid grasp of the basics and maybe a bit more these days. Any stake is a serious roll building stake, some great players have started at 2NL and built up from there. The big blind is only relative to the size of your bankroll, and the baby micros are a solid learning ground.

Well I'll share a secret. The last fortnight, I've been playing $25nl FR and £25nl 6max at stars underolled, after cashing out a good % of my roll for IRL. I had a strategy in place, ie start at $200, drop below $100, back to $10nl, drop below $50, down to $5nl, but fortunately I pulled my roll from $200 to $500+ in the last ten days. I was as low as $120 at one stage, stuck with the plan and got rewarded.

I didn't want to step down because it's fucking tedious roll building from $10nl and down. I will step down if I have to, but looks like I've weathered the storm.

So to answer your question... I think $25nl is the minimum for serious roll building. Obv it can be done at lower stakes, but it takes so much longer, and of course all that you're really doing is trying to get back to $25nl.

Obv if you're getting owned at $25nl, like my first shot last year, then it's not a great place to build a roll. You gotta at least beat the stakes, obviously.

I think $25nl at stars is pretty easy. I'm making money without a HUD.
I also think £25 6max at stars is even easier, even though it's strictly speaking higher stakes, due to the £/$ diff. It's something like 20c/40c at a guess. I had a one BI shot at £25nl 6m and I'm up to 8 BI already. So many really bad players at these games. British poker players generally are fucking awful, comparable to the Greek, Dutch and Russians.

I'm far from a good poker player, so if I can beat these stakes quite comfortably with no HUD, I'd say the games are soft.

Obv the above strat is really bad advice for anyone who is not comfortable playing $25nl poker. I mean I say they're soft, but if you have a habit of limping suited connectors and pocket pairs, or reverse implied odds confuse you, then play lower stakes while you build a foundation.

From what I've seen of sloomer's posts, I don't think I'm any better than him. I think there's foundation. I assumed he's already familiar with $2nl.

But Ong, you have already climbed and beat those stakes, and are concidered a winner at those levels. Aggressive BRM is not a huge issue if you have a plan and know you can beat the lower stakes from past experience. Sure $25NL is not anything huge compared to $5NL, but the spread of fish vs crappy taggs and the patience you need to take their money is a learned experience. OP needs to show us his stats that he can beat any stakes below $25NL's for a significant sample before I would give him permission to deposit that much.

Also, if you can beat $25nl for anything decent then $5nl and $10nl shouldn't take more than a month or two to grind a roll with considerable less risk

But Ong, you have already climbed and beat those stakes, and are concidered a winner at those levels.

Yeah this is a very important point. I wouldn't recommend someone starting out at online poker diving right in at $25nl, not unless they're gonna sit at my table anyway.

This is one of those questions which we can't answer with the information you've provided. We need to know your previous experience and if you've beaten cash games and if so at what rate.

wow this is an interesting post, i am beating 5nl pretty hard over a 10K sample (small i know) so there would be nothing wrong with me moving up with 15 buyins to 10nl with a strategy if i i lose 5 hopefully not i will drop back to 5nl?

What level are you playing now? Are you winning, and if so, at what rate over what sample size?

If you have sound reasons to believe you can jump in at NL25 and hold your own, or if your financial situation is such that you don't mind losing at that level while you learn, you can start there.

In general however, I suggest working your way up starting no higher than NL10, and preferably lower. If you figure you'll still be playing poker many years from now, a few weeks or months that you spent in lower levels than where you could have started aren't very meaningful within the bigger picture.

I'd be careful sevendeuce, I don't want this to come across the wrong way but I think my foundation is more solid than yours. I'm comfortable playing $25nl, so I feel I can be more aggressive with my BRM. If I were yet to beat $10nl, I'd be sticking to standard recommendations. If you're beating $5nl comfortably, well get to $200 then have a 5 BI shot... that way you always have a solid $5nl roll.

I used to play 10nl before i stopped playing for like a year slightly longer i think, never had a HUD so dunno what any of my stats or win rate was etc. Gonna grind to 200 anyway take the safe option plus it shouldn't take me too much longer at my current rate of going.

I have played around 150,000 hands spread over 2NL and 5NL. Profiting around $200. I am break even at 10NL over about 5,000 hands.

I haven't played much in the last year and I don't think it's worth going back to playing any lower than 25NL due to the rake.

Do you think it's worth a shot?

@ Sloomer, Just that post tells me your gonna throw your money away. Just the way you answered their questions says your gonna spend $750 on a lesson. There are cheaper ways to learn while earning money.

At anyone else. BRM is about your risk aversion. If you make $100K a year and can deposit $200 at will and are not afraid of losing a few bucks then play with less. If your having a hard time getting money on a site and it's all the roll you will ever have then you need to be way more protective. It's a personal issue. But with that, there are certain inevitable swings from standard variance that will make you lose no matter what you do if your too tight on BI's

Regarding bankroll management, I obviously don't recommend being too reckless with your bankroll, especially if you can't afford to re-deposit if you bust your roll (as in, it's money you can afford to lose without affecting anything).

However, the difference in play at the microstakes (2nl, 4nl, 5nl, 10nl) isn't all that drastically different. And honestly, when the amount you are playing with isn't a substantial sum or you don't depend on it, then I don't really see a problem with being a bit more aggressive with trying to move up.

However, it's important that you must be capable and willing to move down when your bankroll dictates.

I'm not saying to play on a 5 buyin bankroll, or anything like that. I'm simply saying that if you have been winning at a particular stake for a bit, and you have a reasonable bankroll for the next level (say 10-15 buyins), I don't see a problem with giving yourself a 1-2 (depending on how many buyins you actually have) buyin shot at the next stake. As long as you move down if you lose those buyins and re-grind till your next shot.

Maybe just open up 1 table of the higher stake game in place of 1-2 of the lower stakes games you would normally play. Or make sure to be on the lookout for the best tables, and take your shot when a really good seat opens up.

Edit - However, your skill is also a factor. If you are really just learning with little experience, it's probably best to just grind up to the more standard 20ish buyin BRM for the next level. As you aren't likely very adapt at handling swings, or know how you will react when/if you do drop those buyins at your higher stakes shot.

I haven't played much in the last year

Yeah I think this is where your plan fails.

A lot of good advice being posted in here.

Regarding BRM, I am going to set a 8 buyin stoploss at 25nl, If I drop 8 I would move down to 10nl and try to grind back from there up. The 8 buyin stop loss rule will apply to 10NL as well. I don't think I'll blow the whole 750 if I am strict with the BRM.

I'd play a few k hands at $5nl just to get back into it and be confident I'm playing winning poker. It's a cheaper lesson. I can't see you beating $25nl when you're BE at $10nl and you haven't played much in a year. If you try, well I hope you prove me wrong.

I'd start at a level you know you can beat, just to get used to playing again. You'll be rusty and your thought process will be far slower than when you used to play regularly, so you'll need some time - playing higher stakes and trying to learn about better regs at the same time is just going to slow you down.

I think it sounds like a reasonable plan. I started at 2nl cos i didnt think I was good enuff to beat higher stakes but if your fine playing 25nl and you dont feel out of your element or scared money and you can move down when necessary, I cant see it mattering where you start. you still should never go broke.
flip side; if you really belong at 25nl you should have no trouble walking through the lower stakes anyway so you could spend yr dollaz on something nice for your mum.

*edits... if you havent played in forever then you prolly should earn your stripes at the lowest limits, it doesnt take long to beat em*

With only 150k hands experience you should absolutely start lower than 25nl. It's much better if your first move in stakes is up instead of down.

The baller way is to deposit a dollar or try to win a freeroll. You will learn a lot on your way up and build on your BR management skills as well.

28 buy in roll....because thats the max number of tables you can play!! (on stars at least)

Originally Posted by Sloomer

A lot of good advice being posted in here.

Regarding BRM, I am going to set a 8 buyin stoploss at 25nl, If I drop 8 I would move down to 10nl and try to grind back from there up. The 8 buyin stop loss rule will apply to 10NL as well. I don't think I'll blow the whole 750 if I am strict with the BRM.

Yeah but is risking these 8BI now in "any" 25nl game which we don't even know if we are winning in worth it when we can just play 10NL and game select 25nl super hard. I mean basically if you drop the 8BI you are FORCED to play a smaller game and you disable yourself from being able to look for good +eV opportunities at higher stakes.

It's kind of like saying hey I'm +eV in this super big game and if I win I'll make a tonne of money but if you lose you deny yourself tonnes of future opportunities in smaller games.

A real life example would be say we have a 10k BR and we see fish123(spazzy terrible fish) sitting @ 1kNL. Okay we have the jesus seat our winrate is 10bb/100! Suddenly we downswing 4BI and now we can't even shot take 400NL in games where we have a small profit.

The real question isn't whether it's "worth it". The question is, is playing this game today and losing thus losing all the future opportunities I would have had worth the risk of the increase I'll gain? Usually the answer is no.

Another very extreme example is like hey we have 1million dollars(our net worth) and we can coinflip it as a 75% favorite but think of all the immediate +eV opportunities we give up if we lose and how little adding an additional 1million dollars to our net worth really gains us.

On the other hand it MAY be worth it for someone to take a 45% coinflip for a million dollars if they need 2 million to save their business or w/e.

I take what I said back ^^^ this is better advices^^^

deposit whatever, really

but don't jump straight into 25nl cos it doesn't make a whole bunch of sense
if you're good enough to beat 25nl it won't take long at all to make 10bi at 10nl. Start at 10nl, move up once you've made 10bi (that's 4bi at 25nl) and move up with a 6bi stoploss. You'll be playing with confidence and the rust will be gone, those things count for a lot.

If you start at 10nl and lose 10bi, well, move down to 5nl and be glad you didn't start at 25nl.

Originally Posted by Sloomer

A lot of good advice being posted in here.

Regarding BRM, I am going to set a 8 buyin stoploss at 25nl, If I drop 8 I would move down to 10nl and try to grind back from there up. The 8 buyin stop loss rule will apply to 10NL as well. I don't think I'll blow the whole 750 if I am strict with the BRM.

^^^This post makes it sound as if you've already made up your mind and were only looking for someone to tell you to go ahead and do it.
Well, go ahead and do it...it's your $$$.

But how about this instead...
You deposit your $750 and play 5 or 10k hands at 5 or 10nl to get the rust worked out from your year off....That way if you find that you're having some difficulty then you don't stand to lose as much...but if you're showing a decent winrate then take some shots at 25nl.

Given that you're rusty and historically only b/e at NL10, there's no apparent reason to think you won't lose at NL25. So your expectation is -EV.

If you are willing and can afford to lose money while you learn to beat NL25, that's completely up to you. And having a stop-loss will help mitigate the damage. But do you truly believe you won't be forced to drop to 10NL? And if that's the most likely result, it seems to give even more weight to starting lower.

I tend to think the best plan is to start at NL2. You barely beat it before over a decent-sized sample, which tells me your game had plenty of room for improvement. It probably needs even more now.

And paying lower % rake is a dead awful reason to play at a higher buyin level where your EV inclusive of rake is probably a lot worse.